How High do You rate Jack Johnson in your ATG heavyweight list?

[crold1]

Wladimir didn't get knocked down against Galento.

No, he just had to come off the floor to beat Steve Pannell.

[crold1]

Oh I see. Getting run out of the country on bogus charges was ok because he wasn't "lynched". Johnson "made" whites hate him. It was Johnson's fault that racist people hated him for living as he pleased? It was Johnson's fault that black fighters were shut out from title shots? Joe Louis was a hero to the black community so I don't know what your implication there is. Also, Joe Louis lived during the era of segregation. So your theory that "everybody loved Louis and everything was great" shows how ****** you really are. Even more so than I thought. And you still haven't explained what made Jack Johnson less "American" than Louis? Also, your evaluation of Johnson's boxing career shows you don't know much about boxing history either. Johnson fought of the black fighters you claim he "ducked" when he held the "black heavyweight championship". When Johnson won the world heavyweight championship, it was pretty clear that a fight between a black fighter and a white fighter would generate far more money than a fight between two black fighters. And yes I do compare their "impact" on the sport. Johnson's impact on the sport was huge. Too bad that you're too ignorant to realize that. I'll debate you in here. I don't go to the "dome"

Johnson regularly beat wives/women so bad they were laid up in hospitals. That's all I need to know to see him as both a worthwhile public symbol against a social evil and a worthless prick as a human being.

[Calilloyd]

Johnson regularly beat wives/women so bad they were laid up in hospitals. That's all I need to know to see him as both a worthwhile public symbol against a social evil and a worthless prick as a human being.

So did Jake Lamotta. But are we talking about boxing or Nobel peace prize nominees?

[Chief2ndzOnly!]

I thought you were going to dispute something I posted.

Johnson had a decent resume before winning the title, but his defenses of that title were horrendous. Hype the Jeffries win all you want, but the fact that he hadn't fought in 6 years and had to lose 80 pounds cannot be denied. As for Ketchel, I'm not likely to give Wladimir Klitchko any credit for beating Kelly Pavlik either, especially if Pavlik doesn't put on any weight.

But you brought up some additional names. A few wins over an extremely green Sam McVea - not impressed. Had a bunch of fights against Joe Jeannette, but in none of those fights did Joe have over 10 fights worth of experience - not impressed. A fight with an aging, battleworn Young Peter Jackson, who was 1-4-1 in the 6 fights leading up to Johnson - not impressed. And lastly, Denver Ed Martin, who was a pretty good win the first time (though slightly green,) 1-3-1 in his last 5 fights in the rematch - slightly impressed. Plus you failed to mention that LHW George Gardner weighed only 155 lbs at the time and had lost 2 of his last 5 fights - not impressed.

Overall, I just don't see it. The more I look, the more he slides on my list, which I'm thankful of your permission to keep BTW.

There is so much to comment on with your view of these fighters that I dont know where to begin.

If you consider the Denver Ed bouts to be "pretty good" then I probably shouldn't bother typing because I'm not sure HOW familiar you are with him and other pugilists like Sam Langford, Sam Mcvea, Joe Jeanette, Frank Childs, and Klon***e Haines.

As for Denver Ed being "green" I dont buy that in the least bit; he was already the HW "colored" champ by the time he met Jack Johnson(Denver Ed had beaten Frank Childs by then)so your excuse for Ed being "green" is useless there. Young Peter Jackson was not battle worn as you suggest, as he in his very next fight after his loss to Jack; went on to beat Sam Langford by TKO(who he lost to twice before Jack).

As for the 1st Joe Jeanette fight; you do realize that Jack Johnson fought TWO men that day, and KO'd Walter Johnson after going the distance with Joe Jeanette(name me another HW who had a better day at the office.......I'll be waiting for your reply).

On to Sam McVea. I'll give you that Sam was fairly "green" in the 1st fight but not the 2nd or 3rd, as he had KO'd Denver Ed one month before Jack decisioned him again(for 20 rds no less).

Marvin Hart was no push over as he won the vacant HW title that Jefferies left behind. And many felt that Jack Johnson was robbed in that fight. If you want to talk about a valid loss talk about the Joe Choynski fight(as I'm sure you know who he is and what he is remembered for(1st LHW among some of his accomplishments). These are just some points if you like I can go on all day about Jack Johnson, but I'd like you to take these facts of Jack that I've posted into consideration, and once you've thought them over please do respond. I'll come back to this thread to check to see what you have to say potna.

[Calilloyd]

There is so much to comment on with your view of these fighters that I dont know where to begin.

If you consider the Denver Ed bouts to be "pretty good" then I probably shouldn't bother typing because I'm not sure HOW familiar you are with him and other pugilists like Sam Langford, Sam Mcvea, Joe Jeanette, Frank Childs, and Klon***e Haines.

As for Denver Ed being "green" I dont buy that in the least bit; he was already the HW "colored" champ by the time he met Jack Johnson(Denver Ed had beaten Frank Childs by then)so your excuse for Ed being "green" is useless there. Young Peter Jackson was not battle worn as you suggest, as he in his very next fight after his loss to Jack; went on to beat Sam Langford by TKO(who he lost to twice before Jack).

As for the 1st Joe Jeanette fight; you do realize that Jack Johnson fought TWO men that day, and KO'd Walter Johnson after going the distance with Joe Jeanette(name me another HW who had a better day at the office.......I'll be waiting for your reply).

On to Sam McVea. I'll give you that Sam was fairly "green" in the 1st fight but not the 2nd or 3rd, as he had KO'd Denver Ed one month before Jack decisioned him again(for 20 rds no less).

Marvin Hart was no push over as he won the vacant HW title that Jefferies left behind. And many felt that Jack Johnson was robbed in that fight. If you want to talk about a valid loss talk about the Joe Choynski fight(as I'm sure you know who he is and what he is remembered for(1st LHW among some of his accomplishments). These are just some points if you like I can go on all day about Jack Johnson, but I'd like you to take these facts of Jack that I've posted into consideration, and once you've thought them over please do respond. I'll come back to this thread to check to see what you have to say potna.

Nice response. The poster you are responding to doesn't bother to truly check a fighters history. He googles their records and weights from boxrec.com and types a story based on that. He knows absolutely nothing about Johnson's opponents other than the records and weights he sees..

[Chief2ndzOnly!]

Nice response. The poster you are responding to doesn't bother to truly check a fighters history. He googles their records and weights from boxrec.com and types a story based on that. He knows absolutely nothing about Johnson's opponents other than the records and weights he sees..

Thanks potna. I kinda figured that from looking at his previous posts. The post that you have of his in your sig shows me that the is not taking the atmosphere of the times in that particular era into consideration. No other fighter would have been able to shoulder the burdens that Jack Johnson placed on his shoulders at the time. Otherwise they would have chased Tommy Burns around the world(literally) and got up the $30,000 fee that Tommy demanded in order to even consider the fight like Jack did. Oh and Tommy DID beat Marvin Hart in the ring to gain the HW title. And Jack beat Tommy so bad the police stopped the fight and the film crew from filming Jack finishing Tommy off. I'm still gonna check for Hank to show up on the thread cause I really would like to debate with him about MY ATG HW Jack Johnson. He might not be high on everybody elses list but he's head and shoulders above Joe Louis on mine.

[Chief2ndzOnly!]

So did Jake Lamotta. But are we talking about boxing or Nobel peace prize nominees?

Good response Calilloyd. There are plenty of Boxers who were guilty of domestic violence from back then to this very day. And I agree with you. I dont think it's my place to decide if a Boxer should be canonized as a Saint at home, but it is my place as a fan to comment on a Boxers actions in and around the ring.

[Chief2ndzOnly!]

Clottey looked unscathed and had barely broken a sweat against Pacquiao (whose face was swollen and marked) last week, but you'd have to be pretty generous to give him more than a round. Perhaps if Josh or Jack had tried harder, they'd have gotten the win.

Johnson wasn't lynched for the other white fighters he beat (or white women he dated,) so your "probably" doesn't hold any weight at all. Just more revisionist history.

No they didn't lynch Jack; they just made up a law for him(Mann Act).

[Chief2ndzOnly!]

That's not exactly lynching, now is it?

I don't call Ali Clay, I just don't think a guy deserved to be almost blinded for doing so.



Simple. Louis undid the decades of damage that Johnson did for black fighters in the sport. Johnson went out of his way to make whites hate him and provoke racism. Louis had more white fans than black.

Are you seriously comparing their impact on the sport?

If your intention is to continue to flame me, take it to the Dome.

Please explain. What damage did Jack do? And what damage did Joe fix?

[StarshipTrooper]

You're comparing his physical condition:

I think this is the pic he was looking for:


He's got moobies! 'Nuff said

Poet