Do you consider Mike Tyson a P4P all-time great?

[Chally]

The sentiments changed a bit over time, but he was once one of the most overrated fighters. It’s not saying he wasent very good, more of just how lofty so many people had him with the “prime” Tyson comments.
For perspective it was Mike Tyson who lost in one of if not the biggest upsets in history. It wasent anybody else, it was Tyson. That makes sense.
The cream rises to the top. Boxing is a never ending tournament. There’s a reason fighters and especially Tyson started to lose when he fought other guys who were forged in fire. Highlight reel KOs dont show up as often once you fight the best.
His skills are overrated. His head movement is more myth than mythical. His jab was never really a thing. Three, four, five punch combos were the reality compared to just plain slamming in with one twos. He was never a great inside fighter, nor did he want to be there. He’d often look to the ref to separate them and then try and slam in again with a one two. He cycled through his combos more than ever trying to set anything up or counter punch. He often became flat footed.
Of course I can say a pile of things that Mike did extremely well, but that’s often what’s been said enough. Everyone sees his old training videos and whistles, but it’s not the same. Ducking under an overhead line in the ring. Pivoting to different angles on a heavy bag.
He had style, power and a great look. He was entertaining. It’s prize fighting, that’s what people pay to see and he knew it. Short black trunks, old school black boots no socks. If he changed his colours each fight or wore jammers, tassels, or was covered in advertising he wouldn’t be as revered.
That being said being overrated can also mean you are beloved in a way. It’s a compliment at its heart. Lots of fighters are underrated because they just didn’t have all the things people want to pay to see.
So I do think as a prize fighter and an entertainer he was great. The excitement and intrigue he generated for the sport.
People wanted him to win. When he lost they’ve created a myth that he would have won if only…

Amen xxx

[kara]

Not a P4P all-time great, but a very rare talent at heavyweight

[billeau2]

If he beat those 3 in their primes he would be ranked above Ali and Louis, you can bet that. The question is: is Tyson an ATG pound for pound. I say yes. Where he should be ranked is another story.

If I had Dolly Parton's Breasts I would never have left my room as a teenager!

Tyson is unique. If one were to watch film of him, compared to Dempsey for example, most would say yes he was an ATG. His foot speed, his countenance, etc... If this were one of the smaller divisions where there is always alot of great fighters I might have a problem... Given that heavyweight competition is often sketchy I can see Tyson justified as an ATG.

[billeau2]

P4P not at all. In strictly Heavyweight terms, he's not too far outside the All-Time top ten pantheon but I'd have to put him outside it.

That distinction is extremely well put. I find that many individuals don't look at heavyweight competition as a whole when evaluating competition. These two distinctions are definitely above Tyson but I do believe he has a place in an ATG heavyweight list.

For comparative purposes: IMO Liston in his prime was incredibly close to a perfect heavyweight... he beat guys who were very skilled... film shows that to be, in addition to Williams. Yet his competition does not register as outstanding, anymore than Tyson's competition.

[QueensburyRules]

That distinction is extremely well put. I find that many individuals don't look at heavyweight competition as a whole when evaluating competition. These two distinctions are definitely above Tyson but I do believe he has a place in an ATG heavyweight list.

For comparative purposes: IMO Liston in his prime was incredibly close to a perfect heavyweight... he beat guys who were very skilled... film shows that to be, in addition to Williams. Yet his competition does not register as outstanding, anymore than Tyson's competition.

- - Problem being nobody has come close to replicating what Tyson did to wipe out the "On life support early 80s" Don King era.

Nobody since Dempsey in the history of boxing ushered in such mad interest in big heavywt fights as did Mike.

And who was the first Ring #1 P4P fighter in history?

I rest my case. Any blah, blah blah marking down of of Tyson's tragic downfall because of a medical condition beyond his capacity has no bearing on what he meant to boxing. Even in lesser form he was a spectacular cash cow and media savior of a dying sport filled with congenital mediocrity because of the organizational model.

[DeeMoney]

I think we have to ask ourselves a few questions with Tyson in regards to this question:

1) To what extent do we need weight longevity vs peak. Whatever you think about the best version of Tyson, it wasn't around for long.
2) Can a fighter be better than his resume? Tyson's pre prison (see prime) resume isn't as good as others, but thats more of a result of the era. Can we evaluate his film and say 'yeah, he could beat better fighters than he's being given'
3) What level constitutes ATG? Top 20, top 50? Where do we draw the line?

[Willow The Wisp]

These threads.....these posts!.....
Terms such as "P4P", "All-Time Great", "Overrated". These are delusive terms as well as completely subjective at best.
P4P, what really does that mean? Is this a term to determine relative accomplishment with a handicap bonus for the little fellows? All-Time Great? How much time? How great? Top 50? Top 500? Top 10% of the 381,000 professionals of the Gloved Era?. Overrated. Rated by whom? By you? By me?
If a fighter has been selected to the International Boxing Hall of Fame, he is a "P4P", "All-Time Great", and cannot possibly be "Overrated", as he has passed muster as a "Hall of Fame Level" fighter, which self-evidently a far less vague term, and one that implies expert consensus. Tyson, complete with whatever imperfections posters here might claim an awareness of, is all that & a bag of chips.

[QueensburyRules]

I think we have to ask ourselves a few questions with Tyson in regards to this question:

1) To what extent do we need weight longevity vs peak. Whatever you think about the best version of Tyson, it wasn't around for long.
2) Can a fighter be better than his resume? Tyson's pre prison (see prime) resume isn't as good as others, but thats more of a result of the era. Can we evaluate his film and say 'yeah, he could beat better fighters than he's being given'
3) What level constitutes ATG? Top 20, top 50? Where do we draw the line?

- - You're on!!!

Mike first title fight Trevor Berbick, slayer of Ali.

Make your case!

(Rubbing hands in gleeful salivation.) Stay tuned boys, this is gonna get good...

[DeeMoney]

- - You're on!!!

Mike first title fight Trevor Berbick, slayer of Ali.

Make your case!

(Rubbing hands in gleeful salivation.) Stay tuned boys, this is gonna get good...

Not quite sure what you are asking. I stated that Tysons Pre prison resume wasn't as good as others, alluding to it being a result of the era. You stated one of his fights during that time and then wrote "make your case".

Are you asking me to make my case about his resume during that time not being as good as others?
Are you asking me to write how good I thought he was in his prime, predicated specifically on that one fight?
Are you asking whether I believe his ability during this time was better than what his resume shows?

[QueensburyRules]

Not quite sure what you are asking. I stated that Tysons Pre prison resume wasn't as good as others, alluding to it being a result of the era. You stated one of his fights during that time and then wrote "make your case".

Are you asking me to make my case about his resume during that time not being as good as others?
Are you asking me to write how good I thought he was in his prime, predicated specifically on that one fight?
Are you asking whether I believe his ability during this time was better than what his resume shows?

- - First statement of 20 year old Mike arrival in the pantheon was Berbick who was prime.

Name me, surely at least a dozen 20 year old heavies in history with a better scalp.

Then we go to the next scalps and so on.

Should be a cakewalk for you since Mike seems to have had a weak era in general compared to great fighters. Feeling a little shy, maybe?