How does Joe Louis do against these fighters?

[frankenfrank]

Are you serious about those names? Hardly any of them were ranked even in the top 10. Louis won convincingly against a lot of fighters too who were better than this lot.

not many of louis' wins were better than the list i gave.
schmelling and walcott were , but they were not more dangerous as they were smaller.

Yes and Ruiz has been the type that gets better as he gets older while Tua got worse and worse since the Ruiz win.

in a rematch expect tua to beat ruiz again , maybe slower but still.

A comeback KO of a cruiserweight after losing just about every round on the scorecards. Much like most of Tua's wins. A prime Moorer wouldn't have needed a comeback KO to beat Jirov at heavyweight.

but it still shows he was not that much shot at the time he fought tua , which was yet 2 years earlier.

And why exactly do Lance Whitaker, Corey Sanders, Kirk Johnson and Oliver McCall have more power than anyone Louis ever faced? Tua is the only notable puncher in the list. The rest were big but size doesn't mean you can punch. Otherwise 6'4, 240 lb Zuri Lawrence wouldn't have 0 knockouts in 50 fights.

b/c they are bigger , roider and GH'der.
in average bigger size is a bigger punch and a better chin. fact. otherwise there would not have been so many weight classes , which are almost all very much needed. and some are still missing. like the superheavyweight division for example.

"Cruiserweight" Max Baer who was in shape at 210 lbs while the likes of Johnson, Sanders, Whitaker were just fat and out of shape most of the time punched a lot harder than any of them. Abe Simon and Buddy Baer were also very big and Louis slaughtered them.

he was 203 against schmelling , and i think he was in shape that time.
whatever video/footage of him hitting a lightheavyweight / middleweight you may have , he still punches weaker than them.

How many men had ever stopped Baer at the time Louis KO'd him? No one. Whose punching power had taken him to a world heavyweight title and whose did not?

who held the titles at the respective times ?

Agreed about the heart. Baer never gave up after getting hit by a couple of right hands in the first round like Tua did against Lewis.

tua did not give up , i saw the fight , repeating a lie will not make it a truth.
it is still better than saying byrd hurt tua as seriously you claim.

He had more muscles but do muscles win fights? If they did, this man would have surely won over Louis:



This is what happened:

carnera was not as technically good as you try to make of him.
canera was no klitschko , not even a wlad .

If he wasn't brilliant then why do you rank him among your top 10 greatest heavyweights? McCall hardly used his reach, he just plodded forward and exploded with his counter right hand every once in a while.

b/c without being brilliant he would still beat most of the fighters in your list that are not in my list.

Tyson had other claims to fame than having a fight against Douglas. For example making McCall quit in a sparring session.

so this is another reason why tyson should be higher than mccall in my list. good to know.

I didn't know that lasting the distance against Buster Douglas makes you great.

in itself it doesn't. but i alreadt mentioned mccall's other claims to greatness.
douglas was a big dangerous heavy , ask tyson of what he can do.

Derrick Jefferson is equal to Wilson, Nicolson, Sullivan, Bell. Tony Thompson & Jameel McCline are better and were ranked in the top 10. Those fighters you listed weren't any good at all.

they were proven dangerous and tua beat them much more convincingly and quicker than anyone else did.

The fact is that Wladimir never struggled against men his own size. Chambers has. It could be a closer match-up if the two were the same size but Wladimir would still be favoured. Chambers has not yet shown the kind of work ethic and dedication that Wladimir has. If he can put those together, he could win even if he's out-sized.

had they been the same size it would have been either a draw , or close to it.

i need to go now.

[frankenfrank]

You're now admitting that light heavyweights and cruiserweights have been able to compete today when a moment earlier you said that they couldn't. None of the fighters you listed were as great as the men I'm talking about. If light heavyweights and cruiserweights could beat McCall and Tua then so could Louis.

of course they can compete today , against the likes of themselves.
but whenever they step in the ring against a technically almost decent superheavy in a fine condition they lose.
adamek can compete against chambers , haye can compete against ruiz , moorer could compete against jirov , but no one can compete against the klitschkos. sanders , puritty were almost natural heavys and brewster was quite of a fluke , and a roided one at that , and fighting a chinny wlad also helped.
louis could outpoint mccall on some occasions , i suppose (not certain) , but mccall stopping louis is about as reasonable scenario.

Savon was adept at fighting teenagers in 4 rounders but Schmeling was an actual pro who had fought 15 round fights and had held the heavyweight championship of the world. A young Louis lost to him and avenged the loss in devastating fashion. It's far more excusable than the many losses on McCall's record.

no. a stoppage loss to a smaller fighter is by far worse than a decision loss to a bigger fighter like mccall's losses to bruno , tucker and douglas.
some of mccall's losses were also too close to be considered as serious losses.

[StarshipTrooper]

Are you serious about those names? Hardly any of them were ranked even in the top 10. Louis won convincingly against a lot of fighters too who were better than this lot.

Yes and Ruiz has been the type that gets better as he gets older while Tua got worse and worse since the Ruiz win.

A comeback KO of a cruiserweight after losing just about every round on the scorecards. Much like most of Tua's wins. A prime Moorer wouldn't have needed a comeback KO to beat Jirov at heavyweight.

And why exactly do Lance Whitaker, Corey Sanders, Kirk Johnson and Oliver McCall have more power than anyone Louis ever faced? Tua is the only notable puncher in the list. The rest were big but size doesn't mean you can punch. Otherwise 6'4, 240 lb Zuri Lawrence wouldn't have 0 knockouts in 50 fights.

"Cruiserweight" Max Baer who was in shape at 210 lbs while the likes of Johnson, Sanders, Whitaker were just fat and out of shape most of the time punched a lot harder than any of them. Abe Simon and Buddy Baer were also very big and Louis slaughtered them.

How many men had ever stopped Baer at the time Louis KO'd him? No one. Whose punching power had taken him to a world heavyweight title and whose did not?

Agreed about the heart. Baer never gave up after getting hit by a couple of right hands in the first round like Tua did against Lewis.

He had more muscles but do muscles win fights? If they did, this man would have surely won over Louis:



This is what happened:



If he wasn't brilliant then why do you rank him among your top 10 greatest heavyweights? McCall hardly used his reach, he just plodded forward and exploded with his counter right hand every once in a while.

Tyson had other claims to fame than having a fight against Douglas. For example making McCall quit in a sparring session.

I didn't know that lasting the distance against Buster Douglas makes you great.

Derrick Jefferson is equal to Wilson, Nicolson, Sullivan, Bell. Tony Thompson & Jameel McCline are better and were ranked in the top 10. Those fighters you listed weren't any good at all.

Chambers vs Dimitrenko should have been a draw? It was a near shut-out and a beatdown of Dimitrenko that some blind judge scored a draw.

The fact is that Wladimir never struggled against men his own size. Chambers has. It could be a closer match-up if the two were the same size but Wladimir would still be favoured. Chambers has not yet shown the kind of work ethic and dedication that Wladimir has. If he can put those together, he could win even if he's out-sized.

You can't just say that Tua would've destroyed everyone if he were taller. First of all the reason he has such explosive power is because he's very compact, stocky and has strong legs. His bobbing & weaving makes fighters miss due to his short height and his left hook comes from the opponent's blind side. The reason he hasn't beaten every fighter he has fought is because he lacks consistent work ethic and because he is simply not as good a boxer as the likes of Byrd.

A focused Baer would go through today's top 10 like butter outside of the Klitschko brothers. Schmeling was better than the likes of Chagaev and Povetkin. More skilled, smarter and with a harder punch.

You don't need a Tua punch or a McCall chin to beat them, that has been proven over and over. And Baer had a hell of a chin and easily a bigger punch than McCall whose power comes mostly from his ability to catch people with punches they don't see coming. Baer had raw power and could club opponents down.

Haye has a chin made of glass.

Something happened even when Byrd caught Tua, not to mention Lewis. He got discouraged. Tua is not some kind of a "terminator" even if his nickname is such, if he gets hit it'll make him think about his next move or if he makes another move at all. No one wants to take unnecessary punishment. In fact neither McCall or Tua are like Baer who was willing to walk through punishment to land his own. They're much more defensive fighters.

Are you kidding me? Louis would destroy Haye worse than Carl Thompson ever could.

Tua is very comparable to Louis's opposition. He was just a contender who never won a title.

He didn't try very aggressively at all. The reason he only reached is because he didn't try to force Lewis to fight in close unlike Frazier, Dempsey, Marciano. He was content on staying at Lewis's range and being picked apart but not knocked out.

Byrd was also able to trade punches and hurt Tua to the body. Holyfield did beat Bowe the one time he actually used his boxing and didn't brawl with Bowe. I've seen power punchers KO Wladimir far more often than I've seen tall jabbers beat Louis.

You're now admitting that light heavyweights and cruiserweights have been able to compete today when a moment earlier you said that they couldn't. None of the fighters you listed were as great as the men I'm talking about. If light heavyweights and cruiserweights could beat McCall and Tua then so could Louis.

Savon was adept at fighting teenagers in 4 rounders but Schmeling was an actual pro who had fought 15 round fights and had held the heavyweight championship of the world. A young Louis lost to him and avenged the loss in devastating fashion. It's far more excusable than the many losses on McCall's record.

Game, set, and match!

Poet

[TheGreatA]

adamek came from 175 originally , just like moorer and spinks.
but you know how these two ended when faced the real monsters , not b/c they were not good fighters.
byrd was an escapologist , the only way for a 175 to face a natural heavyweight (shw) , with a reasonable amount of skill.
jirov , cole , ruiz , norris , hide , jeremy williams and more even came from cw , but the same can be said about them from the same reasons. they were all good fighters whom simply never understood they should fight men their own size or at least run away in fights just to last the distance.

You're now admitting that light heavyweights and cruiserweights have been able to compete today when a moment earlier you said that they couldn't. None of the fighters you listed were as great as the men I'm talking about. If light heavyweights and cruiserweights could beat McCall and Tua then so could Louis.

but still there is a difference. this is not like 31 and 29.
in louis' case it is harder to excuse.
and then again , tua was fighting savon For **** Sake , 5 years older than him , with much more experience and some 7" / 8" reach advantage.

Savon was adept at fighting teenagers in 4 rounders but Schmeling was an actual pro who had fought 15 round fights and had held the heavyweight championship of the world. A young Louis lost to him and avenged the loss in devastating fashion. It's far more excusable than the many losses on McCall's record.

[TheGreatA]

they were the best of his wins but there were more :
maskaev , he also was the quickest to stop gary bell (KO'd mccline) and obed sullivan who gave big problems to rahman and larry donald , david izon , darroll wilson (KO'd shannon briggs) and danel nicholson.
i really do not consider anyone of these fighters as good , but each one of them could issue problems and win against a good fighter in their prime.
winning so convincingly against them is accumulated to greatness.
he was the quickest loss on so many people's resume.

Are you serious about those names? Hardly any of them were ranked even in the top 10. Louis won convincingly against a lot of fighters too who were better than this lot.

he was young himself at that time , just the same age .

Yes and Ruiz has been the type that gets better as he gets older while Tua got worse and worse since the Ruiz win.

that old , 35 years old moorer remained the only stoppage loss yet of vassily jirov , whom he fought 2 years later.

A comeback KO of a cruiserweight after losing just about every round on the scorecards. Much like most of Tua's wins. A prime Moorer wouldn't have needed a comeback KO to beat Jirov at heavyweight.

that would be exactly what people would have said of joe louis had he fought tua in his prime.
lance whitaker , kirk johnson , correy sanders , mccall , tua , had all more punching power than anyone louis ever faced.
that max baer could have been a cw in the 190 limit days.

And why exactly do Lance Whitaker, Corey Sanders, Kirk Johnson and Oliver McCall have more power than anyone Louis ever faced? Tua is the only notable puncher in the list. The rest were big but size doesn't mean you can punch. Otherwise 6'4, 240 lb Zuri Lawrence wouldn't have 0 knockouts in 50 fights.

"Cruiserweight" Max Baer who was in shape at 210 lbs while the likes of Johnson, Sanders, Whitaker were just fat and out of shape most of the time punched a lot harder than any of them. Abe Simon and Buddy Baer were also very big and Louis slaughtered them.

but baer is no tua , not the same chin , not the same power , not the same what you call : heart.

How many men had ever stopped Baer at the time Louis KO'd him? No one. Whose punching power had taken him to a world heavyweight title and whose did not?

Agreed about the heart. Baer never gave up after getting hit by a couple of right hands in the first round like Tua did against Lewis.

it is hard to argue with that pic (but still possible) , but mccall had other times than the time that pic was taken in.
maybe he was less in shape than louis but still had more muscle than louis , and not any less reach i guess , boxrec says he had more , but i really do not take boxrec seriously on reach issues. also not in height issues , but in the reach department they are even worse.

He had more muscles but do muscles win fights? If they did, this man would have surely won over Louis:



This is what happened:

never been down as a pro , never really stopped as a pro , not a briliant fighter at all , but has power and chin , a very useful combination.
and unlike tua , he also has some reach and height , although not too much too.

If he wasn't brilliant then why do you rank him among your top 10 greatest heavyweights? McCall hardly used his reach, he just plodded forward and exploded with his counter right hand every once in a while.

great reasoning. so tyson is a lesser buster douglas too.

Tyson had other claims to fame than having a fight against Douglas. For example making McCall quit in a sparring session.

I didn't know that lasting the distance against Buster Douglas makes you great.

but they were not good , maybe mccline has a reasonable talent , but the other two are not any better than darroll wilson , danel nicholson , obed sullivan , gary bell , etc.
they had no top10 (at their time) skill . maybe not even top20.
chambers outpointed dimitrenko in a close fight that maybe should have been a draw too , did wlad ever faced such a size disadvantage ?
wlad can punch better than chambers merely because he has those great physical advantages of his . had chambers had them too , he would have been a better wlad. he has a better chin at least. or at least a better defense.
chamber's technique is not any inferior to wlad's he simply can't and doesn't try to do the same things b/c he's too small.

Derrick Jefferson is equal to Wilson, Nicolson, Sullivan, Bell. Tony Thompson & Jameel McCline are better and were ranked in the top 10. Those fighters you listed weren't any good at all.

Chambers vs Dimitrenko should have been a draw? It was a near shut-out and a beatdown of Dimitrenko that some blind judge scored a draw.

The fact is that Wladimir never struggled against men his own size. Chambers has. It could be a closer match-up if the two were the same size but Wladimir would still be favoured. Chambers has not yet shown the kind of work ethic and dedication that Wladimir has. If he can put those together, he could win even if he's out-sized.

i have yet to bet on a fight.
tua is a midget. but a very massive midget.
had he been 6'4" he'd destroyed both klitschkos , lewis , bowe , foreman , ali , holmes , byrd , ibeabuchi , anyone you choose .
and had he given a shot at ruiz/moorer/maskaev/holyfield(i saw their SPARRING) / brewster/chagaev when they held those belts you consider that much he would have been a belt holder too , he did not have the greatest promoter on his side that's all. a clear orlin norris case.

You can't just say that Tua would've destroyed everyone if he were taller. First of all the reason he has such explosive power is because he's very compact, stocky and has strong legs. His bobbing & weaving makes fighters miss due to his short height and his left hook comes from the opponent's blind side. The reason he hasn't beaten every fighter he has fought is because he lacks consistent work ethic and because he is simply not as good a boxer as the likes of Byrd.

what level ? schmelling and baer could have only been good contenders at cw today , not even too good. i guess they could win and lose some belt or two at some point or another , maybe even unify the WBF with the IBC.

A focused Baer would go through today's top 10 like butter outside of the Klitschko brothers. Schmeling was better than the likes of Chagaev and Povetkin. More skilled, smarter and with a harder punch.

not a tua punch , not a mccall punch , not a tua chin , not a mccall chin , not even close to any one of these two in these departments at all.
he was a lesser fighter than haye. haye was better than him on both departments.

You don't need a Tua punch or a McCall chin to beat them, that has been proven over and over. And Baer had a very solid chin and easily a bigger punch than McCall whose power comes mostly from his ability to catch people with punches they don't see coming. Baer had raw power and could club opponents down.

Haye has a chin made of glass.

simply because tua is a midget , but when louis catches him , nothing happens , when he catches louis , louis goes out on a stretcher with an oxygen mask.

Something happened even when Byrd caught Tua, not to mention Lewis. He got discouraged. Tua is not some kind of a "terminator" even if his nickname is such, if he gets hit it'll make him think about his next move or whether he makes another move at all. No one wants to take unnecessary punishment. In fact neither McCall or Tua are like Baer who was willing to walk through punishment to land his own. They're much more defensive fighters.

until tua catches him and then it's all over.
don't compare tua to louis' opposition.
comparing louis to haye is very much needed.
i guess haye could destroy him as well.

Are you kidding me? Louis would destroy Haye worse than Carl Thompson ever could.

Tua is very comparable to Louis's opposition. He was just a contender who never won a title.

he tried but could not reach .
he even scored somehow but was just too short to fully reach , just watch how lewis trembled at the end of one of the rounds when tua scored on him.

He didn't try very aggressively at all. The reason he only reached is because he didn't try to force Lewis to fight in close unlike Frazier, Dempsey, Marciano. He was content on staying at Lewis's range and being picked apart but not knocked out.

byrd was successful b/c he was an escapologist.
if someone close enough to tua's size ever tried to fight him , he'd have gone to sleep.
holyfield did never really beat bowe , bowe did beat him , however.
of course louis could repeat a sudden stoppage on wladimir , but the opposite is the more probable and wlad will not even need the surprise.

Byrd was also able to trade punches and hurt Tua to the body. Holyfield did beat Bowe the one time he actually used his boxing and didn't brawl with Bowe. I've seen power punchers KO Wladimir far more often than I've seen tall jabbers beat Louis.

[RockyB]

I think foreman and liston could go either way, depending on how well louis can stay away.

i cant see him staying away from tyson though with his incredible speed and combinations!

[frankenfrank]

Both Moorer and Ruiz fought ****** against Tua, they basically gave him every opportunity to land a bomb. Other fighters didn't, and Tua couldn't put them away. I notice you keep bringing up these two fights against B-level belt holders, I guess that's Tua's only claim to fame. His power still wasn't enough to beat real champions such as Lewis and Byrd, nor would it be against Louis.

they were the best of his wins but there were more :
maskaev , he also was the quickest to stop gary bell (KO'd mccline) and obed sullivan who gave big problems to rahman and larry donald , david izon , darroll wilson (KO'd shannon briggs) and danel nicholson.
i really do not consider anyone of these fighters as good , but each one of them could issue problems and win against a good fighter in their prime.
winning so convincingly against them is accumulated to greatness.
he was the quickest loss on so many people's resume.

Tua beat a young Ruiz, not the near impossible to KO cautious clincher that he later became.

he was young himself at that time , just the same age .

He beat an old Moorer who was there to collect a paycheck.

that old , 35 years old moorer remained the only stoppage loss yet of vassily jirov , whom he fought 2 years later.

Maskaev was KO'd more impressively by Kirk Johnson and Lance Whitaker but neither of them were world championship caliber. He had a chin made of glass yet was outboxing Tua in every round until getting caught.

that would be exactly what people would have said of joe louis had he fought tua in his prime.
lance whitaker , kirk johnson , correy sanders , mccall , tua , had all more punching power than anyone louis ever faced.
that max baer could have been a cw in the 190 limit days.

He wouldn't be as stationary as you'd think. He wouldn't run either. He'd do to Tua what he did against Baer. Step in and out of Tua's (shorter) range and catch him with shorter, more accurate punches.

but baer is no tua , not the same chin , not the same power , not the same what you call : heart.

Not what I'd call fat. And if you're saying he was "fat" then what's this argument about McCall being bigger than Louis all about? Maybe he weighed more because he was out of shape then because he sure wasn't taller and didn't have a longer reach.

it is hard to argue with that pic (but still possible) , but mccall had other times than the time that pic was taken in.
maybe he was less in shape than louis but still had more muscle than louis , and not any less reach i guess , boxrec says he had more , but i really do not take boxrec seriously on reach issues. also not in height issues , but in the reach department they are even worse.

McCall has also lost numerous clear decisions by wide margins. He fights like a sparring partner which is why he doesn't win in the judges' eyes.

never been down as a pro , never really stopped as a pro , not a briliant fighter at all , but has power and chin , a very useful combination.
and unlike tua , he also has some reach and height , although not too much too.

He was a lesser Buster Douglas because he couldn't beat Buster Douglas.

great reasoning. so tyson is a lesser buster douglas too.

He can punch unlike Chambers. Wladimir has beaten several opponents his size, such as Tony Thompson, Jameel McCline and Derrick Jefferson. It's not just his size that wins the fights.

but they were not good , maybe mccline has a reasonable talent , but the other two are not any better than darroll wilson , danel nicholson , obed sullivan , gary bell , etc.
they had no top10 (at their time) skill . maybe not even top20.
chambers outpointed dimitrenko in a close fight that maybe should have been a draw too , did wlad ever faced such a size disadvantage ?
wlad can punch better than chambers merely because he has those great physical advantages of his . had chambers had them too , he would have been a better wlad. he has a better chin at least. or at least a better defense.
chamber's technique is not any inferior to wlad's he simply can't and doesn't try to do the same things b/c he's too small.

Where does all this confidence in your fight picks come from? Do you bet on fights and make money from it? From what I'm seeing your only argument for Tua is that he is "big" and can punch and take a punch.

i have yet to bet on a fight.
tua is a midget. but a very massive midget.
had he been 6'4" he'd destroyed both klitschkos , lewis , bowe , foreman , ali , holmes , byrd , ibeabuchi , anyone you choose .
and had he given a shot at ruiz/moorer/maskaev/holyfield(i saw their SPARRING) / brewster/chagaev when they held those belts you consider that much he would have been a belt holder too , he did not have the greatest promoter on his side that's all. a clear orlin norris case.

Louis won fights because he was the greatest puncher and finisher of all time. Having a chin and a punch can win fights but not at the level Louis was competing at.

what level ? schmelling and baer could have only been good contenders at cw today , not even too good. i guess they could win and lose some belt or two at some point or another , maybe even unify the WBF with the IBC.

Max Baer had a punch and a chin too, see how he ended up. Being a bigger puncher doesn't mean anything when you're facing a better puncher.

not a tua punch , not a mccall punch , not a tua chin , not a mccall chin , not even close to any one of these two in these departments at all.
he was a lesser fighter than haye. haye was better than him on both departments.

Louis's jab will score, as Tua is about the easiest fighter in heavyweight history to dominate with the jab, and it'll keep Tua off balance.

simply because tua is a midget , but when louis catches him , nothing happens , when he catches louis , louis goes out on a stretcher with an oxygen mask.

In punching exchanges Louis's quicker, more accurate punches will score and he is a big enough puncher to gain the respect of Tua.

until tua catches him and then it's all over.
don't compare tua to louis' opposition.
comparing louis to haye is very much needed.
i guess haye could destroy him as well.

Look at what Lewis scoring right hands early on Tua did to his mentality, Tua no longer tried to rush in and be aggressive, he was content on lasting the distance.

he tried but could not reach .
he even scored somehow but was just too short to fully reach , just watch how lewis trembled at the end of one of the rounds when tua scored on him.

That's because Byrd and Moorer weren't great fighters. But they were still competitive, disproving your argument that "cruiserweights" can't compete today when they obviously can and do, see Haye, Chambers. Vitali couldn't put away Byrd and quit against him. Holyfield was able to beat Bowe in the rematch and gave Lewis a close fight in the rematch. He was not a puncher as you said but Louis was. Louis has the power to repeat a Brewster/Sanders/Puritty on Wladimir. And Sanders was an overweight golfer, imagine if Wladimir was fighting a full-time, peak shape power puncher.

byrd was successful b/c he was an escapologist.
if someone close enough to tua's size ever tried to fight him , he'd have gone to sleep.
holyfield did never really beat bowe , bowe did beat him , however.
of course louis could repeat a sudden stoppage on wladimir , but the opposite is the more probable and wlad will not even need the surprise.

The light heavyweight division is of historical significance and it's filled with competent fighters who fight at their best weight. The cruiserweight division is basically a junior heavyweight division where heavyweight hopefuls hide to beat lesser opposition until stepping up. See Adamek, Haye, basically any relevant cruiserweight ever.

adamek came from 175 originally , just like moorer and spinks.
but you know how these two ended when faced the real monsters , not b/c they were not good fighters.
byrd was an escapologist , the only way for a 175 to face a natural heavyweight (shw) , with a reasonable amount of skill.
jirov , cole , ruiz , norris , hide , jeremy williams and more even came from cw , but the same can be said about them from the same reasons. they were all good fighters whom simply never understood they should fight men their own size or at least run away in fights just to last the distance.


"21 is not 19 , it is growth time and critical difference."

The fact is that neither Tua or Louis were at their best at the time. They went onto be better and proved it.[/QUOTE]
but still there is a difference. this is not like 31 and 29.
in louis' case it is harder to excuse.
and then again , tua was fighting savon For **** Sake , 5 years older than him , with much more experience and some 7" / 8" reach advantage.

[frankenfrank]

Another alt red Ked, ignored, and reported.

Poet

maybe he is not pee after all , pee was not that nut.

[TheGreatA]

I have never seen a poster discredit so many fighters since I signed up to this forum.

I'm discrediting them from top 10 all-time great status.

[StarshipTrooper]

Laughing at your own perverted jokes....how sad.I try not to pity you,but it's difficult not to when you have a middle aged,out of shape hermit who has been completely rejected by society.

I sometimes fear we have another Ricardo Lopez case when dealing with you.

Awwww boo hoo Slimeypoophead's been owned again

Poet