Anyone else agree SRR is overrated?

[Obama]

*****, if this is an original post Im nominating it (although very early still) as post of the year. If its not an original post it still contains to many facts to refute. Nice job!

I wrote that up in 2009. Just never here...

[JAB5239]

I wrote that up in 2009. Just never here...

Great, great post!! Wish I could green K you, but it won't allow it so soon.

[Calilloyd]

So you want to know why Sugar Ray was the greatest...


Undefeated Amateur Featherweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated Amateur Lightweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated & Uncrowned Lightweight Champion
Undefeated Welterweight Champion
5 Time World Middleweight Champion
And Nearly the Light Heavyweight Champion


Amateur Career:


Overall, Robinson had an open record of 85-0, winning both the Featherweight and Lightweight Golden Gloves Championships in the process. 65 of the wins came by KO, 40 of which took place in the first round.


Lightweight Career:


You're probably asking yourself, “What Lightweight career?”. Although a brief one, Robinson did in fact have a substantial Lightweight career. He beat the NBA and soon to be World Lightweight Champion (Sammy Angott) after all, whilst maintaining a record of 21-0 with 18 KOs. His additional notable opponents included Pete Lello and Maxie Shapiro.


Welterweight Career:


As a Welterweight, Robinson was undefeated. Going against the likes of Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, and Kid Gavilan, this was an impressive feat. Counting Robinson's actual amount of Welterweight fights is rather tricky considering he often mixed it up with Middleweights as well. Nonetheless I have calculated that it was about 58 fights. He won them all without draws, and did so with no real controversial victories, the closest to controversy being the first fight with Kid Gavilan. It's also important to note that whilst still being a natural Welterweight, Robinson had beat Jake LaMotta 4 out of 5 times.


Middleweight Career:


Robinson's MW Record before becoming World Champion for the 1st time
*Includes his winning of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Jake LaMotta (x5)
Vic Dellicurti (x3)
Lou Woods
Jose Basora
Jimmy Mandell
Tony Riccio
Freddie Flores (x2)
Freddie Wilson (x2)
Vinnie Vines
Artie Levine
Georgie Abrams
Eddie Finazzo
Ossie Harris (x2)
Henry Brimm (x2)
Don Lee (x2)
Earl Turner
Cecil Hudson (x2)
Steve Belloise
Charley Dodson
Aaron Wade
Cliff Beckett (x2)
Ray Barnes
Robert Villemain (x2)
Billy Brown
Joe Rindone
Bobo Olson
Jean Stock
Luc van Dam
Hans Stretz

Losses:
Jake LaMotta II

Draws:
Jose Basora
Henry Brimm

That's 43 Middleweight wins with only 1 loss and 2 draws upon winning the World Championship.


Robinson's MW Record from after winning the title for the 1st time to losing it for the last time
*Does not include his first winning of the title
*Does not include his last loss of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Holley Mims
Don Ellis
Kid Marcel
Jean Wanes
Jan de Bruin
Jean Walzack
Gerhard Hecht (Although declared a NC, for all intensive purposes it's a win)
Cyrille Delannoit
Randy Turpin
Bobo Olson (x3)
Rocky Graziano
Joe Rindone
Johnny Lombardo
Ted Olla
Garth Panter
Rocky Castellani
Bob Provizzi
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio
Bob Young

Losses:
Randy Turpin I
Joey Maxim
Ralph Jones
Gene Fullmer I
Carmen Basilio I


That's 22 Middleweight wins with 5 losses, but 1 was at LHW.

So lets do some math here, 46 + 26 = 72. Robinson essentially had 72 Middleweight fights before you could officially label him as washed up (when he finally lost his MW title for the last time). Of those 72 fights, he won 65, lost 5, and drew twice. One loss came in a fight where he was outweighed by 16 lbs, and three came after he returned from retirement. Randy Turpin's win over Robinson is perhaps the only really meaningful one. Yet when Turpin beat Robinson, Ray had already previously had 132 professional bouts. Everyone who beat Robinson, aside from Tiger Jones (who caught Robinson nearly just out of retirement), was a great fighter. The names on his resume speak for themselves, the man truly was the greatest.


Robinson's Unquantified-but-Detailed Complete Career Resume:

*Info below uses Ring Annual Ratings
*Hall of Famers in bold

Pete Lello (#3 LW – 1940)
Sammy Angott (#1 LW – 1940, LW Champ – 1941, #2 LW – 1943, #8 WW – 1945)
Maxie Shapiro (#8 LW – 1942)
Marty Servo [Undefeated] (WW Champ – 1946)
Fritzie Zivic (WW Champ – 1940, #3 WW – 1941, #8 WW 1942)
Maxie Berger (JWW Champ – 1939, #6 WW – 1940)
Norman Rubio (#10 WW – 1941)
Reuben Shank (#8 MW – 1943)
Tony Motisi (#9 WW – 1942)
Jake LaMotta (#6 MW – 1942, #1 MW – 1943, #2 MW – 1944, #3 MW – 1945, #1 MW – 1946)
(#5 MW – 1947, #3 MW – 1948, MW Champ – 1949 & 1950)
Izzy Janazzo (#2 WW – 1940, #8 WW – 1941 & 1943)
Vic Dellicurti (#10 MW – 1944)
Al Nettlow (couple close fights with Bob Montgomery, beat Maxie Berger)
California Jackie Wilson (#2 WW – 1941, #3 WW – 1942)
Ralph Zannelli (#5 WW – 1943, #4 WW – 1947)
Henry Armstrong (WW Champ – 1938 & 1939, #1 WW – 1940, #2 WW – 1942, #1 WW – 1944)
Sheik Rangel (#10 WW – 1942)
George Martin (beat Ralph Zannelli, Garvey Young, V. Vines, Pedro Montanez, Battling Battalino, Andy Callahan)
Tommy Bell (#1 WW – 1946, #2 WW – 1947)
George Costner (#5 WW – 1947, #2 WW – 1949)
Jimmy McDaniels (#4 WW – 1944)
O'Neill Bell (just beat George Costner, Jackie Wilson, and Fritzie Zivic back to back to back)
Joe Curcio (beat Fritzie Zivic, Cecil Hudson, and Johnny Green)
Vinnie Vines (beat Sam Baroudi and Jackie Alzek)
Ossie Harris (beat Tommy Bell, Reuben Shank, and Fritzie Zivic)
Cecil Hudson (beat Tommy Bell, Fritzie Zivic, Freddie Dixon, Ossie Harris, & Sheik Rangel)
Artie Levine (beat Jimmy Doyle, Marvin Bryant, Vic Dellicurti, Herbie Kronowitz, & Joe Agosta)
Georgie Abrams (#5 MW – 1946)
Jimmy Doyle (#2 WW – 1945, #7 WW – 1946)
Billy Nixon (beat Johnny Green, Buster Tyler, & Johnny Hutchinson)
Chuck Taylor (beat Frankie Abrams, Tony Pellone, and Honeychile Johnson)
Henry Brimm (beat Vic Dellicurti, Holman Williams, Joey DeJohn, Arte Towne, & Tony Elizondo)
Bernard Docusen (#3 WW – 1948 & 1949)
Kid Gavilan (#1 WW – 1948, 1949, 1950, & 1951, WW Champ – 1952 & 1953)
Bobby Lee (beat Livio Minelli, Billy Nixon, Nava Esparza, Dorsey Lay, Honeychile Johnson, Chico Varona, & Gene Burton)
Don Lee (beat Jimmy McDaniels, Vince Foster, Sheik Rangel, Joe Danos, Howard Bleyhl, Billy Tierney)
Earl Turner (beat Sheik Rangel, Fred Apostoli, Cecil Hudson, Cocoa Kid, Don Lee, Jackie Wilson, George Costner, George Duke, etc)
Steve Belloise (#2 MW – 1948, #5 MW – 1949)
Al Mobley (beat Fritzie Zivic, Georgie Benton, Honeychile Johnson, George Martin, Sylvester Perkins, Otis Graham, & Bert Linam)
Aaron Wade (#7 MW – 1945)
Ray Barnes (#7 MW – 1950)
Robert Villemain (#3 MW – 1949, #8 MW – 1950, #9 MW – 1951)
Charley Fusari (#3 WW – 1950, #8 WW – 1951)
Jose Basora (#4 MW – 1943 & 1944)
Joe Rindone (beat Ralph Zannelli, Paul Pender, Bob Murphy, Pierre Langlois, Joe Blackwood, Charley Zivic, & Henry Lee)
Bobo Olson (#3 MW – 1952, MW Champ – 1953 & 1954, #1 MW – 1955)
Bobby Dykes (#2 WW – 1952, #5 MW – 1953)
Jean Stock (beat Randy Turpin, Bobby Dawson, Omar Kouidri, Cyrille Delannoit, Robert Charron, Edouard Tenet)
Luc van Dam (beat Jean Stock, Cyrille Delannoit, Jacques Royer Crecy, Albert Finch, Bep van Klaveren, & Felix Wouters)
Hans Stretz (beat Randy Turpin, Jacques Royer Crecy, Al Mobley, Peter Mueller, Rudi Pepper)
(Carl Schmidt, Heinz Sanger, Alex Buxton, Johnny Sullivan, Franco Festucci)
Holley Mims (#8 MW – 1953, #3 MW – 1954, #6 MW – 1955)
Cyrille Delannoit (#5 MW – 1948)
Randy Turpin (#1 MW – 1951 & 1952, MW Champ – 1951)
Rocky Graziano (#3 MW – 1946, MW Champ – 1947, #10 MW – 1948 & 1951)
Garth Panter (beat Pierre Langlois, Walter Cartier, and Earl Turner)
Rocky Castellani (#1 MW – 1953, #2 MW – 1954, #5 MW – 1955)
Gene Fullmer (#1 MW – 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #2 MW – 1957 & 1958, #1 MW – 1959, 1960, 1961, & 1962)
Carmen Basilio (WW Champ – 1955 & 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #1 MW – 1958)
Denny Moyer (#9 MW – 1961, #6 MW – 1962, JMW Champ – 1963, #9 MW – 1968, #2 MW – 1969)
Ralph Dupas (#2 WW – 1961, #3 WW – 1962, #4 WW – 1963, JMW Champ – 1963)
Yoland Leveque (beat Bennie Briscoe, Jacques Marty, Art Hernandez, & Bo Hogberg)

Wow. Great post!

[GameGod]

Absolutely, and not many people would admit to this because you have extreme nuthuggers ready to castrate you for it. His legacy is built upon stats. He padded his record much the same way Chavez did to get that many wins, and very few in his era were actually greats. Furthermore his numerous titles and "moving up in weight" are also overrated. The guy was always bigger than his opponents so not much credit given there.
He will always be the myth in boxing. Idiotic lads will defend his mythical #1 status without even seeing more than just youtube highlights.

Absolutely. Henry Armstrong and Kid Gavilan were fodder, average fighters. LaMotta was disastrous, Zivic, Graziano and Turpin are second-rate, and Fullmer and Bell were simply abysmal. Am I right?

[BennyST]

Yes, I believe he is. I own 22 of his fights and highlights from him as a welterweight. He's a great fighter no doubt, with fast hands in combination and a great chin. His movement was very flawless as well. That said, I've seen better. There are fighters in the game now that hold all the same qualities he does, most of them choose to box though rather than slug. He's overrated because people call him the greatest of all time and 75 percent of these people havent even seen him fight, they just instantly buy into the hype.

I'll say this, You put SRR in there with a 160 pound prime roy jones, and jones is faster, hits harder, and quicker on his feet. Jones gives SRR all he could handle at middleweight. Just a reference for people that think SRR could hurt jones, James toney's been hurting cruiserweights and even knocked out evander holyfield, Jones took a ton of clean hard shots from toney at 168.

There might be people in the game with all the qualities that he held, but there is one quality that very few fighters in history have ever held and will ever hold His will to win and keep winning against all odds.

Being the GOAT is not just a matter of skill. It is as much a matter of skill and will. The difference between most guys now and Robinson is not only his will but the sheer amount of great fighters he beat too.

You're right though. Robinson probably wouldn't beat Jones. In fact, I definitely don't think he would. So what? Jones was a huge MW that could only stay there for a small amount of time because he was too big for it. He was a natural LHW and in Robinson's day of weigh ins, he would never have been a MW. He would have been a LHW straight away because there was no SMW. Strip that, he may have been a MW for a very brief period but would have had to leave well before winning a title.

Not only that but Robinson was a WW and it's a different story if you put both of them in a P4P sense. Jones may still have won. I wouldn't discount him, but you also have to factor in today's plyometric exercises,new strength and conditioning stuff for speed and strength etc etc which these guys would have done and so champions from whatever era they were in would be as dominant in today's as there were then. That's how P4P works. If everything were the same, who would win? Weight, technology, how dominant, height, reach, speed, class of opposition etc etc etc.

Consider this: If he fought today, he would have been able to shrink down to 130 easily. He started fighting at 135 and stayed there for about two years beating many great LW's. With day before weigh ins and today's dehydration and rehydration techniques, he could have been a 130 pounder without any trouble at all. Possibly even less with the emphasis placed on getting down so low today too. He would have been able to win some kind of title at 130 without any problems. He could have won another at 135, another at 140, 147, 154, 160, and, dare I say it, 168, and probably 175 too. After all, he only lost his LHW title shot because it was a fifteen rounder in stinking, sweltering non air-conditioned heat. Very different from today.

There was one title in his day and he beat great champions from the LW division to nearly winning the LHW title. One title in each division, meaning you had to fight the one and only guy at the top. Today, he could fought the guy that would have simply given him any title, ie. the worst title holder out of the four/five/six or whatever in each division. Being able to get down to 130 easily, hypothetically he could have won eight titles pretty easy all things considered. He nearly did it fighting the absolute best each division had to offer with same day weigh ins and without the latest in dehydration and rehydration techniques.

Most people don't think about that stuff though do they? You have to take everything into consideration from each era, both old and new. The amount of titles available today is laughable and someone as good as Robinson, able to win as much as he was in his own day would lap it up today. He had the perfect body to walk through a lot of divisions and his skill and will to win would have made titles in each of those divisions nearly a definite.

I don't know, but, what I do know is that Robinson beat more great fighters over a longer period of time than probably any other fighter ever. That is why he is considered the GOAT.

[SplitSecond]

I don't rate Hopkins's win over JD Jackson. Castro was taking a brutal beating from Jackson and was nearly stopped until KO'ing Jackson with one punch. He was tough, about the toughest fighter I ever saw, but not a good boxer at all.



This hardly proves anything about his boxing skills.



They fought a bunch of bums, every fighter has, but they also fought and beat numerous contenders, champions and hall of famers, more so than most of today's fighters.



If it's coming to the point where you have to call the likes of Joey Maxim "****" then there's no use in even arguing. I don't rate Maxim as one of the greatest but he was hardly a bum and the fight was at light heavyweight anyway. Robinson started out as a lightweight.

Patterson wasn't good? Care to point out why? You're just throwing out big statements about how LaMotta, Maxim and Patterson weren't any good without actually saying why.

And Roy Jones can't even compete against decent opposition these days. Danny Green couldn't get past European level fighters like Markus Beyer yet he looked like a destroyer against Jones. Robinson was still world class in his late 30's while Jones is far from it.

i never said that patterson was ****, i said if he was'nt green he would've beaten maxim and also that he wasn't THAT good as some people would suggest

and to be fair to jones, he has a **** chin and robinson fought only "boxers", none of those guys came rushin in like danny green and glenn johnson

so i dont think it's the skills that got robinson by, because i really do believe jones is much more skilled, it was robinsons toughness and mediocre(green is below mediocre) boxers pretending to be elite-boxers

and benny, the polymetrics exercises haven't changed that much to make a differrence.
As for nutrition, would it be difficult for them to just pick up a bannana, apples etc eat some lean meat and fish(which was probabley better than todays without all the chemicals)?

[Roger Yomama]

I mean he fought a bunch of mediocre fighters 200 times is that grounds for P4P.

SRL IMO has the better resume just by beating Hearns and Hagler.

That is all.

Funniest thing I have read on here in ages!!!

[Obama]

i never said that patterson was ****, i said if he was'nt green he would've beaten maxim and also that he wasn't THAT good as some people would suggest

Had nothing to do with it, Patterson peaked early. The problem was he just got robbed.

and to be fair to jones, he has a **** chin and robinson fought only "boxers", none of those guys came rushin in like danny green and glenn johnson

Gene Fullmer is the most dangerous in-rusher Robinson fought, and he fought a prime Fullmer nearly a decade past his own prime. Gene Fullmer is considered one of the all time great Middleweights. Danny Green and Glen Johnson will never be ATG anything.

[StarshipTrooper]

So you want to know why Sugar Ray was the greatest...


Undefeated Amateur Featherweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated Amateur Lightweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated & Uncrowned Lightweight Champion
Undefeated Welterweight Champion
5 Time World Middleweight Champion
And Nearly the Light Heavyweight Champion


Amateur Career:


Overall, Robinson had an open record of 85-0, winning both the Featherweight and Lightweight Golden Gloves Championships in the process. 65 of the wins came by KO, 40 of which took place in the first round.


Lightweight Career:


You're probably asking yourself, “What Lightweight career?”. Although a brief one, Robinson did in fact have a substantial Lightweight career. He beat the NBA and soon to be World Lightweight Champion (Sammy Angott) after all, whilst maintaining a record of 21-0 with 18 KOs. His additional notable opponents included Pete Lello and Maxie Shapiro.


Welterweight Career:


As a Welterweight, Robinson was undefeated. Going against the likes of Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, and Kid Gavilan, this was an impressive feat. Counting Robinson's actual amount of Welterweight fights is rather tricky considering he often mixed it up with Middleweights as well. Nonetheless I have calculated that it was about 58 fights. He won them all without draws, and did so with no real controversial victories, the closest to controversy being the first fight with Kid Gavilan. It's also important to note that whilst still being a natural Welterweight, Robinson had beat Jake LaMotta 4 out of 5 times.


Middleweight Career:


Robinson's MW Record before becoming World Champion for the 1st time
*Includes his winning of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Jake LaMotta (x5)
Vic Dellicurti (x3)
Lou Woods
Jose Basora
Jimmy Mandell
Tony Riccio
Freddie Flores (x2)
Freddie Wilson (x2)
Vinnie Vines
Artie Levine
Georgie Abrams
Eddie Finazzo
Ossie Harris (x2)
Henry Brimm (x2)
Don Lee (x2)
Earl Turner
Cecil Hudson (x2)
Steve Belloise
Charley Dodson
Aaron Wade
Cliff Beckett (x2)
Ray Barnes
Robert Villemain (x2)
Billy Brown
Joe Rindone
Bobo Olson
Jean Stock
Luc van Dam
Hans Stretz

Losses:
Jake LaMotta II

Draws:
Jose Basora
Henry Brimm

That's 43 Middleweight wins with only 1 loss and 2 draws upon winning the World Championship.


Robinson's MW Record from after winning the title for the 1st time to losing it for the last time
*Does not include his first winning of the title
*Does not include his last loss of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Holley Mims
Don Ellis
Kid Marcel
Jean Wanes
Jan de Bruin
Jean Walzack
Gerhard Hecht (Although declared a NC, for all intensive purposes it's a win)
Cyrille Delannoit
Randy Turpin
Bobo Olson (x3)
Rocky Graziano
Joe Rindone
Johnny Lombardo
Ted Olla
Garth Panter
Rocky Castellani
Bob Provizzi
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio
Bob Young

Losses:
Randy Turpin I
Joey Maxim
Ralph Jones
Gene Fullmer I
Carmen Basilio I


That's 22 Middleweight wins with 5 losses, but 1 was at LHW.

So lets do some math here, 46 + 26 = 72. Robinson essentially had 72 Middleweight fights before you could officially label him as washed up (when he finally lost his MW title for the last time). Of those 72 fights, he won 65, lost 5, and drew twice. One loss came in a fight where he was outweighed by 16 lbs, and three came after he returned from retirement. Randy Turpin's win over Robinson is perhaps the only really meaningful one. Yet when Turpin beat Robinson, Ray had already previously had 132 professional bouts. Everyone who beat Robinson, aside from Tiger Jones (who caught Robinson nearly just out of retirement), was a great fighter. The names on his resume speak for themselves, the man truly was the greatest.


Robinson's Unquantified-but-Detailed Complete Career Resume:

*Info below uses Ring Annual Ratings
*Hall of Famers in bold

Pete Lello (#3 LW – 1940)
Sammy Angott (#1 LW – 1940, LW Champ – 1941, #2 LW – 1943, #8 WW – 1945)
Maxie Shapiro (#8 LW – 1942)
Marty Servo [Undefeated] (WW Champ – 1946)
Fritzie Zivic (WW Champ – 1940, #3 WW – 1941, #8 WW 1942)
Maxie Berger (JWW Champ – 1939, #6 WW – 1940)
Norman Rubio (#10 WW – 1941)
Reuben Shank (#8 MW – 1943)
Tony Motisi (#9 WW – 1942)
Jake LaMotta (#6 MW – 1942, #1 MW – 1943, #2 MW – 1944, #3 MW – 1945, #1 MW – 1946)
(#5 MW – 1947, #3 MW – 1948, MW Champ – 1949 & 1950)
Izzy Janazzo (#2 WW – 1940, #8 WW – 1941 & 1943)
Vic Dellicurti (#10 MW – 1944)
Al Nettlow (couple close fights with Bob Montgomery, beat Maxie Berger)
California Jackie Wilson (#2 WW – 1941, #3 WW – 1942)
Ralph Zannelli (#5 WW – 1943, #4 WW – 1947)
Henry Armstrong (WW Champ – 1938 & 1939, #1 WW – 1940, #2 WW – 1942, #1 WW – 1944)
Sheik Rangel (#10 WW – 1942)
George Martin (beat Ralph Zannelli, Garvey Young, V. Vines, Pedro Montanez, Battling Battalino, Andy Callahan)
Tommy Bell (#1 WW – 1946, #2 WW – 1947)
George Costner (#5 WW – 1947, #2 WW – 1949)
Jimmy McDaniels (#4 WW – 1944)
O'Neill Bell (just beat George Costner, Jackie Wilson, and Fritzie Zivic back to back to back)
Joe Curcio (beat Fritzie Zivic, Cecil Hudson, and Johnny Green)
Vinnie Vines (beat Sam Baroudi and Jackie Alzek)
Ossie Harris (beat Tommy Bell, Reuben Shank, and Fritzie Zivic)
Cecil Hudson (beat Tommy Bell, Fritzie Zivic, Freddie Dixon, Ossie Harris, & Sheik Rangel)
Artie Levine (beat Jimmy Doyle, Marvin Bryant, Vic Dellicurti, Herbie Kronowitz, & Joe Agosta)
Georgie Abrams (#5 MW – 1946)
Jimmy Doyle (#2 WW – 1945, #7 WW – 1946)
Billy Nixon (beat Johnny Green, Buster Tyler, & Johnny Hutchinson)
Chuck Taylor (beat Frankie Abrams, Tony Pellone, and Honeychile Johnson)
Henry Brimm (beat Vic Dellicurti, Holman Williams, Joey DeJohn, Arte Towne, & Tony Elizondo)
Bernard Docusen (#3 WW – 1948 & 1949)
Kid Gavilan (#1 WW – 1948, 1949, 1950, & 1951, WW Champ – 1952 & 1953)
Bobby Lee (beat Livio Minelli, Billy Nixon, Nava Esparza, Dorsey Lay, Honeychile Johnson, Chico Varona, & Gene Burton)
Don Lee (beat Jimmy McDaniels, Vince Foster, Sheik Rangel, Joe Danos, Howard Bleyhl, Billy Tierney)
Earl Turner (beat Sheik Rangel, Fred Apostoli, Cecil Hudson, Cocoa Kid, Don Lee, Jackie Wilson, George Costner, George Duke, etc)
Steve Belloise (#2 MW – 1948, #5 MW – 1949)
Al Mobley (beat Fritzie Zivic, Georgie Benton, Honeychile Johnson, George Martin, Sylvester Perkins, Otis Graham, & Bert Linam)
Aaron Wade (#7 MW – 1945)
Ray Barnes (#7 MW – 1950)
Robert Villemain (#3 MW – 1949, #8 MW – 1950, #9 MW – 1951)
Charley Fusari (#3 WW – 1950, #8 WW – 1951)
Jose Basora (#4 MW – 1943 & 1944)
Joe Rindone (beat Ralph Zannelli, Paul Pender, Bob Murphy, Pierre Langlois, Joe Blackwood, Charley Zivic, & Henry Lee)
Bobo Olson (#3 MW – 1952, MW Champ – 1953 & 1954, #1 MW – 1955)
Bobby Dykes (#2 WW – 1952, #5 MW – 1953)
Jean Stock (beat Randy Turpin, Bobby Dawson, Omar Kouidri, Cyrille Delannoit, Robert Charron, Edouard Tenet)
Luc van Dam (beat Jean Stock, Cyrille Delannoit, Jacques Royer Crecy, Albert Finch, Bep van Klaveren, & Felix Wouters)
Hans Stretz (beat Randy Turpin, Jacques Royer Crecy, Al Mobley, Peter Mueller, Rudi Pepper)
(Carl Schmidt, Heinz Sanger, Alex Buxton, Johnny Sullivan, Franco Festucci)
Holley Mims (#8 MW – 1953, #3 MW – 1954, #6 MW – 1955)
Cyrille Delannoit (#5 MW – 1948)
Randy Turpin (#1 MW – 1951 & 1952, MW Champ – 1951)
Rocky Graziano (#3 MW – 1946, MW Champ – 1947, #10 MW – 1948 & 1951)
Garth Panter (beat Pierre Langlois, Walter Cartier, and Earl Turner)
Rocky Castellani (#1 MW – 1953, #2 MW – 1954, #5 MW – 1955)
Gene Fullmer (#1 MW – 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #2 MW – 1957 & 1958, #1 MW – 1959, 1960, 1961, & 1962)
Carmen Basilio (WW Champ – 1955 & 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #1 MW – 1958)
Denny Moyer (#9 MW – 1961, #6 MW – 1962, JMW Champ – 1963, #9 MW – 1968, #2 MW – 1969)
Ralph Dupas (#2 WW – 1961, #3 WW – 1962, #4 WW – 1963, JMW Champ – 1963)
Yoland Leveque (beat Bennie Briscoe, Jacques Marty, Art Hernandez, & Bo Hogberg)

As surprising as it may be to some to see me write this, that's a great bit of work there and SHOULD end this "discussion" once and for all. Sadly though, it probably won't: Trolls never let facts get in the way of their agenda.

Green K given.

Poet

[StarshipTrooper]

There might be people in the game with all the qualities that he held, but there is one quality that very few fighters in history have ever held and will ever hold His will to win and keep winning against all odds.

Being the GOAT is not just a matter of skill. It is as much a matter of skill and will. The difference between most guys now and Robinson is not only his will but the sheer amount of great fighters he beat too.

You're right though. Robinson probably wouldn't beat Jones. In fact, I definitely don't think he would. So what? Jones was a huge MW that could only stay there for a small amount of time because he was too big for it. He was a natural LHW and in Robinson's day of weigh ins, he would never have been a MW. He would have been a LHW straight away because there was no SMW. Strip that, he may have been a MW for a very brief period but would have had to leave well before winning a title.

Not only that but Robinson was a WW and it's a different story if you put both of them in a P4P sense. Jones may still have won. I wouldn't discount him, but you also have to factor in today's plyometric exercises,new strength and conditioning stuff for speed and strength etc etc which these guys would have done and so champions from whatever era they were in would be as dominant in today's as there were then. That's how P4P works. If everything were the same, who would win? Weight, technology, how dominant, height, reach, speed, class of opposition etc etc etc.

Consider this: If he fought today, he would have been able to shrink down to 130 easily. He started fighting at 135 and stayed there for about two years beating many great LW's. With day before weigh ins and today's dehydration and rehydration techniques, he could have been a 130 pounder without any trouble at all. Possibly even less with the emphasis placed on getting down so low today too. He would have been able to win some kind of title at 130 without any problems. He could have won another at 135, another at 140, 147, 154, 160, and, dare I say it, 168, and probably 175 too. After all, he only lost his LHW title shot because it was a fifteen rounder in stinking, sweltering non air-conditioned heat. Very different from today.

There was one title in his day and he beat great champions from the LW division to nearly winning the LHW title. One title in each division, meaning you had to fight the one and only guy at the top. Today, he could fought the guy that would have simply given him any title, ie. the worst title holder out of the four/five/six or whatever in each division. Being able to get down to 130 easily, hypothetically he could have won eight titles pretty easy all things considered. He nearly did it fighting the absolute best each division had to offer with same day weigh ins and without the latest in dehydration and rehydration techniques.

Most people don't think about that stuff though do they? You have to take everything into consideration from each era, both old and new. The amount of titles available today is laughable and someone as good as Robinson, able to win as much as he was in his own day would lap it up today. He had the perfect body to walk through a lot of divisions and his skill and will to win would have made titles in each of those divisions nearly a definite.

I don't know, but, what I do know is that Robinson beat more great fighters over a longer period of time than probably any other fighter ever. That is why he is considered the GOAT.

Excellent!