Anyone else agree SRR is overrated?

[Calilloyd]

I think most people who view the fights of LaMotta and Castro can easily see the difference. LaMotta could box very well while Castro had no boxing skill whatsoever. Also LaMotta easily fought and beat the better opposition.







Then again you must also acknowledge the fact that Roy Jones at 39 is being knocked around by the likes of Danny Green while Ray Robinson at 39 was reigning as the middleweight champion of the world. Roy at his peak was a sight to behold but there's something to be said about the longevity of a Ray Robinson.

And Jones by no means took a "ton" of shots by James Toney. Iran Barkley took a ton of shots by Toney. Jones got caught with a couple, I could count the big punches Toney landed in that fight on one hand. That's a compliment to Jones.

I can't take a person seriously when they compare Jake Lamotta to Jorge Castro. That just leaves me speechless and shows how little some people know about boxing history. They shouldn't even post in here with that kind of ******ity. And you're right. Jones didn't take many shots from Toney at all. The rest is just not worth wasting time.

[GJC]

It goes against everything that you were ever spoonfed about boxing innit mate?



TOUGH GUY huh? Yeah you're an online tough guy innit?

Well you are the one who insults people constantly, I doubt whether you swagger around like that in the real world do you?
OK always easy to criticise so your chance to be constructive where do you rank SRR all time? 5th, 10th, 50th? And give us your top 5?

[JAB5239]

TOUGH GUY huh? Yeah you're an online tough guy innit?

Well you are the one who insults people constantly, I doubt whether you swagger around like that in the real world do you?
OK always easy to criticise so your chance to be constructive where do you rank SRR all time? 5th, 10th, 50th? And give us your top 5?

I offer up a spirited debate, he comes back with "TOUGH GUY huh?". Classic example of Slimey not willing to back up his words out of fear of more embarrassment. Sad, ain't it G?

[DeepSleep]

I thought I had seen it all on here from Duran, Louis, Hagler, etc, etc being called overrated but this takes the cake. Of all the fighters to call overrated how could you even make an argument against SRR?

[JAB5239]

I thought I had seen it all on here from Duran, Louis, Hagler, etc, etc being called overrated but this takes the cake. Of all the fighters to call overrated how could you even make an argument against SRR?

Its a joke, isn't it? The man fought 18 different world champions in a period where there was only 1 title in each division. Just to make a comparison (no knock on anybody) has either Pac or Floyd even fought 18 titlist in their careers? Robinson was amazing.

[dde91]

WOW. Some people have just gone ******ed lately. I think that Pac-May deal not going through made some people snap or something.

[donkim]

What disturbs me is the lack of great black fighters on Ray Robinson's resume.The likes of Cocoa Kid,Holman Williams,Lloyd Marshall,Eddie Brooker,Archie Moore,Jack Chase,and Charley Burley were all fighting one another and on many occasions did so several times,and yet the p4p king never fought any of them.

I offer up a spirited debate, he comes back with "TOUGH GUY huh?". Classic example of Slimey not willing to back up his words out of fear of more embarrassment. Sad, ain't it G?

No you don't.You offer up a month's worth of infractions looking to get posters who you disagree with suspended.

[JAB5239]

What disturbs me is the lack of great black fighters on Ray Robinson's resume.The likes of Cocoa Kid,Holman Williams,Lloyd Marshall,Eddie Brooker,Archie Moore,Jack Chase,and Charley Burley were all fighting one another and on many occasions did so several times,and yet the p4p king never fought any of them.

You need to understand the era to understand why those fights weren't made. There simply wasn't any money in it for him. Im not excusing it, only pointing out a fact. He did beat both Gavilan and Armstrong though, as well as Aaron Wade..

No you don't.You offer up a month's worth of infractions looking to get posters who you disagree with suspended.

No, I offer infractions and red k for trolls looking to start trouble. Im willing to have a reasonable debate with anyone if they can bring facts and logical opinion to the table. Would you like to try me on this subject?

[Obama]

So you want to know why Sugar Ray was the greatest...


Undefeated Amateur Featherweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated Amateur Lightweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated & Uncrowned Lightweight Champion
Undefeated Welterweight Champion
5 Time World Middleweight Champion
And Nearly the Light Heavyweight Champion


Amateur Career:


Overall, Robinson had an open record of 85-0, winning both the Featherweight and Lightweight Golden Gloves Championships in the process. 65 of the wins came by KO, 40 of which took place in the first round.


Lightweight Career:


You're probably asking yourself, “What Lightweight career?”. Although a brief one, Robinson did in fact have a substantial Lightweight career. He beat the NBA and soon to be World Lightweight Champion (Sammy Angott) after all, whilst maintaining a record of 21-0 with 18 KOs. His additional notable opponents included Pete Lello and Maxie Shapiro.


Welterweight Career:


As a Welterweight, Robinson was undefeated. Going against the likes of Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, and Kid Gavilan, this was an impressive feat. Counting Robinson's actual amount of Welterweight fights is rather tricky considering he often mixed it up with Middleweights as well. Nonetheless I have calculated that it was about 58 fights. He won them all without draws, and did so with no real controversial victories, the closest to controversy being the first fight with Kid Gavilan. It's also important to note that whilst still being a natural Welterweight, Robinson had beat Jake LaMotta 4 out of 5 times.


Middleweight Career:


Robinson's MW Record before becoming World Champion for the 1st time
*Includes his winning of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Jake LaMotta (x5)
Vic Dellicurti (x3)
Lou Woods
Jose Basora
Jimmy Mandell
Tony Riccio
Freddie Flores (x2)
Freddie Wilson (x2)
Vinnie Vines
Artie Levine
Georgie Abrams
Eddie Finazzo
Ossie Harris (x2)
Henry Brimm (x2)
Don Lee (x2)
Earl Turner
Cecil Hudson (x2)
Steve Belloise
Charley Dodson
Aaron Wade
Cliff Beckett (x2)
Ray Barnes
Robert Villemain (x2)
Billy Brown
Joe Rindone
Bobo Olson
Jean Stock
Luc van Dam
Hans Stretz

Losses:
Jake LaMotta II

Draws:
Jose Basora
Henry Brimm

That's 43 Middleweight wins with only 1 loss and 2 draws upon winning the World Championship.


Robinson's MW Record from after winning the title for the 1st time to losing it for the last time
*Does not include his first winning of the title
*Does not include his last loss of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Holley Mims
Don Ellis
Kid Marcel
Jean Wanes
Jan de Bruin
Jean Walzack
Gerhard Hecht (Although declared a NC, for all intensive purposes it's a win)
Cyrille Delannoit
Randy Turpin
Bobo Olson (x3)
Rocky Graziano
Joe Rindone
Johnny Lombardo
Ted Olla
Garth Panter
Rocky Castellani
Bob Provizzi
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio
Bob Young

Losses:
Randy Turpin I
Joey Maxim
Ralph Jones
Gene Fullmer I
Carmen Basilio I


That's 22 Middleweight wins with 5 losses, but 1 was at LHW.

So lets do some math here, 46 + 26 = 72. Robinson essentially had 72 Middleweight fights before you could officially label him as washed up (when he finally lost his MW title for the last time). Of those 72 fights, he won 65, lost 5, and drew twice. One loss came in a fight where he was outweighed by 16 lbs, and three came after he returned from retirement. Randy Turpin's win over Robinson is perhaps the only really meaningful one. Yet when Turpin beat Robinson, Ray had already previously had 132 professional bouts. Everyone who beat Robinson, aside from Tiger Jones (who caught Robinson nearly just out of retirement), was a great fighter. The names on his resume speak for themselves, the man truly was the greatest.


Robinson's Unquantified-but-Detailed Complete Career Resume:

*Info below uses Ring Annual Ratings
*Hall of Famers in bold

Pete Lello (#3 LW – 1940)
Sammy Angott (#1 LW – 1940, LW Champ – 1941, #2 LW – 1943, #8 WW – 1945)
Maxie Shapiro (#8 LW – 1942)
Marty Servo [Undefeated] (WW Champ – 1946)
Fritzie Zivic (WW Champ – 1940, #3 WW – 1941, #8 WW 1942)
Maxie Berger (JWW Champ – 1939, #6 WW – 1940)
Norman Rubio (#10 WW – 1941)
Reuben Shank (#8 MW – 1943)
Tony Motisi (#9 WW – 1942)
Jake LaMotta (#6 MW – 1942, #1 MW – 1943, #2 MW – 1944, #3 MW – 1945, #1 MW – 1946)
(#5 MW – 1947, #3 MW – 1948, MW Champ – 1949 & 1950)
Izzy Janazzo (#2 WW – 1940, #8 WW – 1941 & 1943)
Vic Dellicurti (#10 MW – 1944)
Al Nettlow (couple close fights with Bob Montgomery, beat Maxie Berger)
California Jackie Wilson (#2 WW – 1941, #3 WW – 1942)
Ralph Zannelli (#5 WW – 1943, #4 WW – 1947)
Henry Armstrong (WW Champ – 1938 & 1939, #1 WW – 1940, #2 WW – 1942, #1 WW – 1944)
Sheik Rangel (#10 WW – 1942)
George Martin (beat Ralph Zannelli, Garvey Young, V. Vines, Pedro Montanez, Battling Battalino, Andy Callahan)
Tommy Bell (#1 WW – 1946, #2 WW – 1947)
George Costner (#5 WW – 1947, #2 WW – 1949)
Jimmy McDaniels (#4 WW – 1944)
O'Neill Bell (just beat George Costner, Jackie Wilson, and Fritzie Zivic back to back to back)
Joe Curcio (beat Fritzie Zivic, Cecil Hudson, and Johnny Green)
Vinnie Vines (beat Sam Baroudi and Jackie Alzek)
Ossie Harris (beat Tommy Bell, Reuben Shank, and Fritzie Zivic)
Cecil Hudson (beat Tommy Bell, Fritzie Zivic, Freddie Dixon, Ossie Harris, & Sheik Rangel)
Artie Levine (beat Jimmy Doyle, Marvin Bryant, Vic Dellicurti, Herbie Kronowitz, & Joe Agosta)
Georgie Abrams (#5 MW – 1946)
Jimmy Doyle (#2 WW – 1945, #7 WW – 1946)
Billy Nixon (beat Johnny Green, Buster Tyler, & Johnny Hutchinson)
Chuck Taylor (beat Frankie Abrams, Tony Pellone, and Honeychile Johnson)
Henry Brimm (beat Vic Dellicurti, Holman Williams, Joey DeJohn, Arte Towne, & Tony Elizondo)
Bernard Docusen (#3 WW – 1948 & 1949)
Kid Gavilan (#1 WW – 1948, 1949, 1950, & 1951, WW Champ – 1952 & 1953)
Bobby Lee (beat Livio Minelli, Billy Nixon, Nava Esparza, Dorsey Lay, Honeychile Johnson, Chico Varona, & Gene Burton)
Don Lee (beat Jimmy McDaniels, Vince Foster, Sheik Rangel, Joe Danos, Howard Bleyhl, Billy Tierney)
Earl Turner (beat Sheik Rangel, Fred Apostoli, Cecil Hudson, Cocoa Kid, Don Lee, Jackie Wilson, George Costner, George Duke, etc)
Steve Belloise (#2 MW – 1948, #5 MW – 1949)
Al Mobley (beat Fritzie Zivic, Georgie Benton, Honeychile Johnson, George Martin, Sylvester Perkins, Otis Graham, & Bert Linam)
Aaron Wade (#7 MW – 1945)
Ray Barnes (#7 MW – 1950)
Robert Villemain (#3 MW – 1949, #8 MW – 1950, #9 MW – 1951)
Charley Fusari (#3 WW – 1950, #8 WW – 1951)
Jose Basora (#4 MW – 1943 & 1944)
Joe Rindone (beat Ralph Zannelli, Paul Pender, Bob Murphy, Pierre Langlois, Joe Blackwood, Charley Zivic, & Henry Lee)
Bobo Olson (#3 MW – 1952, MW Champ – 1953 & 1954, #1 MW – 1955)
Bobby Dykes (#2 WW – 1952, #5 MW – 1953)
Jean Stock (beat Randy Turpin, Bobby Dawson, Omar Kouidri, Cyrille Delannoit, Robert Charron, Edouard Tenet)
Luc van Dam (beat Jean Stock, Cyrille Delannoit, Jacques Royer Crecy, Albert Finch, Bep van Klaveren, & Felix Wouters)
Hans Stretz (beat Randy Turpin, Jacques Royer Crecy, Al Mobley, Peter Mueller, Rudi Pepper)
(Carl Schmidt, Heinz Sanger, Alex Buxton, Johnny Sullivan, Franco Festucci)
Holley Mims (#8 MW – 1953, #3 MW – 1954, #6 MW – 1955)
Cyrille Delannoit (#5 MW – 1948)
Randy Turpin (#1 MW – 1951 & 1952, MW Champ – 1951)
Rocky Graziano (#3 MW – 1946, MW Champ – 1947, #10 MW – 1948 & 1951)
Garth Panter (beat Pierre Langlois, Walter Cartier, and Earl Turner)
Rocky Castellani (#1 MW – 1953, #2 MW – 1954, #5 MW – 1955)
Gene Fullmer (#1 MW – 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #2 MW – 1957 & 1958, #1 MW – 1959, 1960, 1961, & 1962)
Carmen Basilio (WW Champ – 1955 & 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #1 MW – 1958)
Denny Moyer (#9 MW – 1961, #6 MW – 1962, JMW Champ – 1963, #9 MW – 1968, #2 MW – 1969)
Ralph Dupas (#2 WW – 1961, #3 WW – 1962, #4 WW – 1963, JMW Champ – 1963)
Yoland Leveque (beat Bennie Briscoe, Jacques Marty, Art Hernandez, & Bo Hogberg)

[JAB5239]

So you want to know why Sugar Ray was the greatest...


Undefeated Amateur Featherweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated Amateur Lightweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated & Uncrowned Lightweight Champion
Undefeated Welterweight Champion
5 Time World Middleweight Champion
And Nearly the Light Heavyweight Champion


Amateur Career:


Overall, Robinson had an open record of 85-0, winning both the Featherweight and Lightweight Golden Gloves Championships in the process. 65 of the wins came by KO, 40 of which took place in the first round.


Lightweight Career:


You're probably asking yourself, “What Lightweight career?”. Although a brief one, Robinson did in fact have a substantial Lightweight career. He beat the NBA and soon to be World Lightweight Champion (Sammy Angott) after all, whilst maintaining a record of 21-0 with 18 KOs. His additional notable opponents included Pete Lello and Maxie Shapiro.


Welterweight Career:


As a Welterweight, Robinson was undefeated. Going against the likes of Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, and Kid Gavilan, this was an impressive feat. Counting Robinson's actual amount of Welterweight fights is rather tricky considering he often mixed it up with Middleweights as well. Nonetheless I have calculated that it was about 58 fights. He won them all without draws, and did so with no real controversial victories, the closest to controversy being the first fight with Kid Gavilan. It's also important to note that whilst still being a natural Welterweight, Robinson had beat Jake LaMotta 4 out of 5 times.


Middleweight Career:


Robinson's MW Record before becoming World Champion for the 1st time
*Includes his winning of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Jake LaMotta (x5)
Vic Dellicurti (x3)
Lou Woods
Jose Basora
Jimmy Mandell
Tony Riccio
Freddie Flores (x2)
Freddie Wilson (x2)
Vinnie Vines
Artie Levine
Georgie Abrams
Eddie Finazzo
Ossie Harris (x2)
Henry Brimm (x2)
Don Lee (x2)
Earl Turner
Cecil Hudson (x2)
Steve Belloise
Charley Dodson
Aaron Wade
Cliff Beckett (x2)
Ray Barnes
Robert Villemain (x2)
Billy Brown
Joe Rindone
Bobo Olson
Jean Stock
Luc van Dam
Hans Stretz

Losses:
Jake LaMotta II

Draws:
Jose Basora
Henry Brimm

That's 43 Middleweight wins with only 1 loss and 2 draws upon winning the World Championship.


Robinson's MW Record from after winning the title for the 1st time to losing it for the last time
*Does not include his first winning of the title
*Does not include his last loss of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Holley Mims
Don Ellis
Kid Marcel
Jean Wanes
Jan de Bruin
Jean Walzack
Gerhard Hecht (Although declared a NC, for all intensive purposes it's a win)
Cyrille Delannoit
Randy Turpin
Bobo Olson (x3)
Rocky Graziano
Joe Rindone
Johnny Lombardo
Ted Olla
Garth Panter
Rocky Castellani
Bob Provizzi
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio
Bob Young

Losses:
Randy Turpin I
Joey Maxim
Ralph Jones
Gene Fullmer I
Carmen Basilio I


That's 22 Middleweight wins with 5 losses, but 1 was at LHW.

So lets do some math here, 46 + 26 = 72. Robinson essentially had 72 Middleweight fights before you could officially label him as washed up (when he finally lost his MW title for the last time). Of those 72 fights, he won 65, lost 5, and drew twice. One loss came in a fight where he was outweighed by 16 lbs, and three came after he returned from retirement. Randy Turpin's win over Robinson is perhaps the only really meaningful one. Yet when Turpin beat Robinson, Ray had already previously had 132 professional bouts. Everyone who beat Robinson, aside from Tiger Jones (who caught Robinson nearly just out of retirement), was a great fighter. The names on his resume speak for themselves, the man truly was the greatest.


Robinson's Unquantified-but-Detailed Complete Career Resume:

*Info below uses Ring Annual Ratings
*Hall of Famers in bold

Pete Lello (#3 LW – 1940)
Sammy Angott (#1 LW – 1940, LW Champ – 1941, #2 LW – 1943, #8 WW – 1945)
Maxie Shapiro (#8 LW – 1942)
Marty Servo [Undefeated] (WW Champ – 1946)
Fritzie Zivic (WW Champ – 1940, #3 WW – 1941, #8 WW 1942)
Maxie Berger (JWW Champ – 1939, #6 WW – 1940)
Norman Rubio (#10 WW – 1941)
Reuben Shank (#8 MW – 1943)
Tony Motisi (#9 WW – 1942)
Jake LaMotta (#6 MW – 1942, #1 MW – 1943, #2 MW – 1944, #3 MW – 1945, #1 MW – 1946)
(#5 MW – 1947, #3 MW – 1948, MW Champ – 1949 & 1950)
Izzy Janazzo (#2 WW – 1940, #8 WW – 1941 & 1943)
Vic Dellicurti (#10 MW – 1944)
Al Nettlow (couple close fights with Bob Montgomery, beat Maxie Berger)
California Jackie Wilson (#2 WW – 1941, #3 WW – 1942)
Ralph Zannelli (#5 WW – 1943, #4 WW – 1947)
Henry Armstrong (WW Champ – 1938 & 1939, #1 WW – 1940, #2 WW – 1942, #1 WW – 1944)
Sheik Rangel (#10 WW – 1942)
George Martin (beat Ralph Zannelli, Garvey Young, V. Vines, Pedro Montanez, Battling Battalino, Andy Callahan)
Tommy Bell (#1 WW – 1946, #2 WW – 1947)
George Costner (#5 WW – 1947, #2 WW – 1949)
Jimmy McDaniels (#4 WW – 1944)
O'Neill Bell (just beat George Costner, Jackie Wilson, and Fritzie Zivic back to back to back)
Joe Curcio (beat Fritzie Zivic, Cecil Hudson, and Johnny Green)
Vinnie Vines (beat Sam Baroudi and Jackie Alzek)
Ossie Harris (beat Tommy Bell, Reuben Shank, and Fritzie Zivic)
Cecil Hudson (beat Tommy Bell, Fritzie Zivic, Freddie Dixon, Ossie Harris, & Sheik Rangel)
Artie Levine (beat Jimmy Doyle, Marvin Bryant, Vic Dellicurti, Herbie Kronowitz, & Joe Agosta)
Georgie Abrams (#5 MW – 1946)
Jimmy Doyle (#2 WW – 1945, #7 WW – 1946)
Billy Nixon (beat Johnny Green, Buster Tyler, & Johnny Hutchinson)
Chuck Taylor (beat Frankie Abrams, Tony Pellone, and Honeychile Johnson)
Henry Brimm (beat Vic Dellicurti, Holman Williams, Joey DeJohn, Arte Towne, & Tony Elizondo)
Bernard Docusen (#3 WW – 1948 & 1949)
Kid Gavilan (#1 WW – 1948, 1949, 1950, & 1951, WW Champ – 1952 & 1953)
Bobby Lee (beat Livio Minelli, Billy Nixon, Nava Esparza, Dorsey Lay, Honeychile Johnson, Chico Varona, & Gene Burton)
Don Lee (beat Jimmy McDaniels, Vince Foster, Sheik Rangel, Joe Danos, Howard Bleyhl, Billy Tierney)
Earl Turner (beat Sheik Rangel, Fred Apostoli, Cecil Hudson, Cocoa Kid, Don Lee, Jackie Wilson, George Costner, George Duke, etc)
Steve Belloise (#2 MW – 1948, #5 MW – 1949)
Al Mobley (beat Fritzie Zivic, Georgie Benton, Honeychile Johnson, George Martin, Sylvester Perkins, Otis Graham, & Bert Linam)
Aaron Wade (#7 MW – 1945)
Ray Barnes (#7 MW – 1950)
Robert Villemain (#3 MW – 1949, #8 MW – 1950, #9 MW – 1951)
Charley Fusari (#3 WW – 1950, #8 WW – 1951)
Jose Basora (#4 MW – 1943 & 1944)
Joe Rindone (beat Ralph Zannelli, Paul Pender, Bob Murphy, Pierre Langlois, Joe Blackwood, Charley Zivic, & Henry Lee)
Bobo Olson (#3 MW – 1952, MW Champ – 1953 & 1954, #1 MW – 1955)
Bobby Dykes (#2 WW – 1952, #5 MW – 1953)
Jean Stock (beat Randy Turpin, Bobby Dawson, Omar Kouidri, Cyrille Delannoit, Robert Charron, Edouard Tenet)
Luc van Dam (beat Jean Stock, Cyrille Delannoit, Jacques Royer Crecy, Albert Finch, Bep van Klaveren, & Felix Wouters)
Hans Stretz (beat Randy Turpin, Jacques Royer Crecy, Al Mobley, Peter Mueller, Rudi Pepper)
(Carl Schmidt, Heinz Sanger, Alex Buxton, Johnny Sullivan, Franco Festucci)
Holley Mims (#8 MW – 1953, #3 MW – 1954, #6 MW – 1955)
Cyrille Delannoit (#5 MW – 1948)
Randy Turpin (#1 MW – 1951 & 1952, MW Champ – 1951)
Rocky Graziano (#3 MW – 1946, MW Champ – 1947, #10 MW – 1948 & 1951)
Garth Panter (beat Pierre Langlois, Walter Cartier, and Earl Turner)
Rocky Castellani (#1 MW – 1953, #2 MW – 1954, #5 MW – 1955)
Gene Fullmer (#1 MW – 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #2 MW – 1957 & 1958, #1 MW – 1959, 1960, 1961, & 1962)
Carmen Basilio (WW Champ – 1955 & 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #1 MW – 1958)
Denny Moyer (#9 MW – 1961, #6 MW – 1962, JMW Champ – 1963, #9 MW – 1968, #2 MW – 1969)
Ralph Dupas (#2 WW – 1961, #3 WW – 1962, #4 WW – 1963, JMW Champ – 1963)
Yoland Leveque (beat Bennie Briscoe, Jacques Marty, Art Hernandez, & Bo Hogberg)

*****, if this is an original post Im nominating it (although very early still) as post of the year. If its not an original post it still contains to many facts to refute. Nice job!