If Cus Damato Lived And Continued To Train Tyson

[BennyST]

BennyST is FAR from being a newbie. In fact he's one of our best posters in the Boxing History section.

Poet

Co-sign. I've come to respect many of your posts Sonny, but you're off base here. Agree or disagree, Benny got great knowledge of the sport and is one of this sites biggest assets.

I've seen a lot of posts in this thread for and against, but its a matter of interpretation. I'll sit this one out and let you guys argue because I can find an argument that goes in either direction depending on my mood.

Gotta give my man Benny credit though, he's a proven fountain of information that I can at least say I've learned much from.

Cheers lads.

I think Douglas was more talented than Rahman, but he was also a classic underachiever who besides that one night never lived up to his potential.

And whether I agree or disagree with Benny, nothing changes the fact that he is a very knowledgeable poster. As I said, much of this is how we individually interpret it.

Yeah, he was a sad case. Really could have been a fantastic fighter, but it's about will and determination as much as talent that makes a fighter what he is. At his best Douglas was incredible, but he was very rarely at his best. Very rarely.

One fight does not make a champion great otherwise Douglas is a great, Spinks is a great, Rahman is a great etc etc.

I do believe that Rahman is a greater fighter than Douglas but more based on longevity and consistency though it is hardly anything great one way or the other for either guy and I wouldn't vehemently argue with Douglas being better. On his best night Douglas was better. Far better in fact, but there was only one really good night. Rahman has had a few. Many might disagree due to that one fight that Douglas had. One fight. Apart from that fight he never again did anything spectacular. I remember when me and my old man went to the pub to watch the fight live. Both of us, as was everyone, were stunned into ******ity by how good he fought that night. Rahman and McCall were never spectacular either, but like Douglas they both beat a prime, great champion in fights they were meant to lose badly.

Douglas had Tyson and McCall had Lewis. Both of them had little beyond that. Douglas had Berbick, McCall and Page and slightly lesser guys such as Cobb. McCall himself had the Lewis win, Larry Holmes, undefeated Bruce Seldon, undefeated, but very green, Oleg Maskaev, Francesco Damiani, Henry Akinwande (all good, some great though faded, HW champions) and the lesser guys like Lance Whitaker, Przemyslaw Saleta, and Sinan Samil Sam.

Rahman had the Lewis win, Berbick, Corrie Sanders, and Tua if you wish, depending on how you view the call, etc and quite a number of decent but lesser fighters like Monte Barrett, Sullivan, Calloway, Meehan, etc.

None of them are good or great fighters but they all had one big win and a bunch of minor lesser wins and all showed ability that was never lived up to. I believe that Douglas could have had a much better career if he did not retire so soon after that terrible loss to Holyfield.

Sonnybox..... Well, I wasn't going to bother replying, but I will just say that I never said Rahman was better than Douglas on the night he fought Tyson. One night doesn't change a whole career though. I agree with you that Douglas would beat both Rahman and McCall, though not Lewis, if he fought as well as he did against Tyson, but he fought that well only once in his whole career. McCall and Rahman, while not as talented, were more consistent in general though they also both certainly had their ups and downs but never to the degree that Douglas showed with an amazing KO win over prime Tyson one night and being knocked out in a couple of one-sided rounds by journeymen nobodies another night.

As for being a Lewis 'nut-hugger' as you so eloquently put it, I don't think I show the characteristics of what a nut-hugger is, which is someone that shows an extremely skewed perspective, and cannot objectively judge because of a biased slant toward one fighter. See your reply to my other post for example. I'm not even a fan of Lewis in particular.

[sonnyboyx2]

Cheers lads.



Yeah, he was a sad case. Really could have been a fantastic fighter, but it's about will and determination as much as talent that makes a fighter what he is. At his best Douglas was incredible, but he was very rarely at his best. Very rarely.

One fight does not make a champion great otherwise Douglas is a great, Spinks is a great, Rahman is a great etc etc.

I do believe that Rahman is a greater fighter than Douglas but more based on longevity and consistency though it is hardly anything great one way or the other for either guy and I wouldn't vehemently argue with Douglas being better. On his best night Douglas was better. Far better in fact, but there was only one really good night. Rahman has had a few. Many might disagree due to that one fight that Douglas had. One fight. Apart from that fight he never again did anything spectacular. I remember when me and my old man went to the pub to watch the fight live. Both of us, as was everyone, were stunned into ******ity by how good he fought that night. Rahman and McCall were never spectacular either, but like Douglas they both beat a prime, great champion in fights they were meant to lose badly.

Douglas had Tyson and McCall had Lewis. Both of them had little beyond that. Douglas had Berbick, McCall and Page and slightly lesser guys such as Cobb. McCall himself had the Lewis win, Larry Holmes, undefeated Bruce Seldon, undefeated, but very green, Oleg Maskaev, Francesco Damiani, Henry Akinwande (all good, some great though faded, HW champions) and the lesser guys like Lance Whitaker, Przemyslaw Saleta, and Sinan Samil Sam.

Rahman had the Lewis win, Berbick, Corrie Sanders, and Tua if you wish, depending on how you view the call, etc and quite a number of decent but lesser fighters like Monte Barrett, Sullivan, Calloway, Meehan, etc.

None of them are good or great fighters but they all had one big win and a bunch of minor lesser wins and all showed ability that was never lived up to. I believe that Douglas could have had a much better career if he did not retire so soon after that terrible loss to Holyfield.

Sonnybox..... Well, I wasn't going to bother replying, but I will just say that I never said Rahman was better than Douglas on the night he fought Tyson. One night doesn't change a whole career though. I agree with you that Douglas would beat both Rahman and McCall, though not Lewis, if he fought as well as he did against Tyson, but he fought that well only once in his whole career. McCall and Rahman, while not as talented, were more consistent in general though they also both certainly had their ups and downs but never to the degree that Douglas showed with an amazing KO win over prime Tyson one night and being knocked out in a couple of one-sided rounds by journeymen nobodies another night.

As for being a Lewis 'nut-hugger' as you so eloquently put it, I don't think I show the characteristics of what a nut-hugger is, which is someone that shows an extremely skewed perspective, and cannot objectively judge because of a biased slant toward one fighter. See your reply to my other post for example. I'm not even a fan of Lewis in particular.

it is quite clear to me that writing the above article all you done was check-out Boxrec then state your case...

To claim that Buster Douglas only ever had one good fight where he was `on-song` is incorrect... i have around 15 fights of Douglas and its clear to see in at least 10 of those fights that the guy is an incredible fighter with a jab as good as any in history, he was as good on those 10 nights as he was in the Tyson fight.. against McCall he was `Fantastic`and McCall was also on-song, it was a great fight by Buster, yet McCall went away after the fight and warned Mike Tyson not to take Douglas lightly because the guy could really fight, against Berbick, Ferguson, Page, Cobb and Jaco Douglas was in top shape and was a hand-full for any fighter..

Hasim Rahman IMO is the worst Heavyweight Champion in history (undisputed) ... Rahman has only ever beaten 2 fighters who you could call above Class C .. an Corrie Sanders and Lennox Lewis, against Sanders he had to climb off the deck and was rather fortunate to succeed, Rahman was twice poleaxed by Oleg Maskaev, he lost every round against John Ruiz, he was being pummeled when he quit against a very old Holyfield, he quit against former middleweight James Toney... IMO Rahman would not last 6rds against Buster Douglas

[sonnyboyx2]

I agree with almost all of this. And while I haven't tried to calculate who I think ranks higher between them, I would like to say that the McCall win for Douglas and the two Tua fights for Rahman make it very close. Either fight could have gone Rahmans way had he not been hit after the bell in the first fight or was given the knockdown in the second fight. Jmo, of course.

talk about sit on the fence... Did Douglas ever get poleaxed like Rahman did Twice against Oleg Maskaev?

would Douglas have lost virtually every round against John Ruiz like Rahman did?

would Rahman have beaten McCall like Douglas did?
the same McCall who wiped-out Maskaev in the opener?

Rahman was not even a top 10 ranked fighter unto the Lewis camp had him installed in the ratings at No10 so that they could have a tomato can to fight instead of a ranked fighter like Ruiz, Byrd, Wlad, Vitali, Sanders... Rahman has failed everytime he has fought a fighter rated in the world top 20 with the exception of Lewis..

Go watch his 2 fights with Maskaev or his fight with Sanders, Ruiz or Holyfield and come back here and try and tell me he is better than James`Buster`Douglas

[mickey malone]

talk about sit on the fence... Did Douglas ever get poleaxed like Rahman did Twice against Oleg Maskaev?

would Douglas have lost virtually every round against John Ruiz like Rahman did?

would Rahman have beaten McCall like Douglas did?
the same McCall who wiped-out Maskaev in the opener?

Rahman was not even a top 10 ranked fighter unto the Lewis camp had him installed in the ratings at No10 so that they could have a tomato can to fight instead of a ranked fighter like Ruiz, Byrd, Wlad, Vitali, Sanders... Rahman has failed everytime he has fought a fighter rated in the world top 20 with the exception of Lewis..

Go watch his 2 fights with Maskaev or his fight with Sanders, Ruiz or Holyfield and come back here and try and tell me he is better than James`Buster`Douglas

Don't have a go at jab.. Come directly to the source of the information..

Prime Douglas was poleaxed by Holyfield, or didn't you read my post?

Yes, Rahman would stand a chance against McCall, who like Douglas, often fought out of shape with no real conviction.. Rahman's KO of Lewis was every inch as good as McCall's..

Oh, and since WHEN have 'Training Camps' dictated the World rankings? Please explain

Sanders, Byrd, Ruiz, Old Holy and possibly Wlad would all get beaten by Tua.. Some of them already have been.. Rahman took Tua to the wire in their last fight, earning a draw..

Name one poster on this thread who has stated that Hasim Rahman is a better fighter than James Buster Douglas???????

Just for the record Rahman has been KO'd 5 times to Douglas's 6..

[Dr. Ironfist]

The real question should be would Cus provide more roids? Because Tyson is the Barry Bonds of boxing. A terrible person whose career is based on rampant steroid abuse Oh and he had no heart and was tiny and struggled with anyone even remotely decent.

[ny123]

The real question should be would Cus provide more roids? Because Tyson is the Barry Bonds of boxing. A terrible person whose career is based on rampant steroid abuse Oh and he had no heart and was tiny and struggled with anyone even remotely decent.

wow where did you come up with that horse **** do you have some inside information we all dont know about

[StarshipTrooper]

The real question should be would Cus provide more roids? Because Tyson is the Barry Bonds of boxing. A terrible person whose career is based on rampant steroid abuse Oh and he had no heart and was tiny and struggled with anyone even remotely decent.

Coming from someone who's a fan of a fighter who ADMITTED his steroid use in his biography

Poet

[Benny Leonard]

The real question should be would Cus provide more roids? Because Tyson is the Barry Bonds of boxing. A terrible person whose career is based on rampant steroid abuse Oh and he had no heart and was tiny and struggled with anyone even remotely decent.

So what you are saying is the White Man just used this poor black kid from the ****** and pumped him up with steroids?

You would think if it were that easy, D'Amato as well as Rooney would have had a fleet of Champions instead of just having their "One" true 200+ pound HW.

I remember seeing on another post a while back that said Tyson was 13 in this picture. A Poster had Tyson through the years, 13, 15, 17, etc. with pictures and a link.



Now let's see: Going from 185+ at 12 years of age to 210-220 by the time he was 20+ and going through puberty....vs. other fighters that put on a lot of weight after puberty when they are already pro while Tyson peaked/stopped increasing weight.



Tyson was far from the first to look like that. In fact, a fighter of the past that is comparable to Tyson in height, weight, and age, was Sam McVey.




[IMG]http://i265.***********.com/albums/ii209/jennetteboxer/sammacveaandbattlingjimjohnson.gif[/IMG]

Now if he had taken anything at some point, like after he left Rooney and especially after he lost to Douglas and needed to regain his confidence or better yet, when some speculate with his physical change after prison...possibly. Although I hear ******* can help make you ripped which would explain his little addiction possibly. Although hiring a personal trainer and someone that can look after your diet will help as ell. Everybody is suspect in eras where PEDs are available.

[sonnyboyx2]

Don't have a go at jab.. Come directly to the source of the information..

Prime Douglas was poleaxed by Holyfield, or didn't you read my post?

Yes, Rahman would stand a chance against McCall, who like Douglas, often fought out of shape with no real conviction.. Rahman's KO of Lewis was every inch as good as McCall's..

Oh, and since WHEN have 'Training Camps' dictated the World rankings? Please explain

Sanders, Byrd, Ruiz, Old Holy and possibly Wlad would all get beaten by Tua.. Some of them already have been.. Rahman took Tua to the wire in their last fight, earning a draw..

Name one poster on this thread who has stated that Hasim Rahman is a better fighter than James Buster Douglas???????

Just for the record Rahman has been KO'd 5 times to Douglas's 6..

your man BennyST is the poster who claimed Rahman is better than Douglas and you and JAB backed him up claiming he was a legend, i said with quotes like that he must be a newbie to this sport.

Douglas weighed 231 for Tyson & 246 for Holyfield so he was nowhere near top shape.

i take it that you are joking when you say, Sanders, Ruiz, Wlad, old Holy & Byrd would all get beaten by Tua... Byrd won every minute of every round against the Fat-Guy and other than catching Ruiz with a shot Tua has done nothing in his career to say he stands much of a chance against Sanders or Wlad.. i would take old Holy to beat him quite easily on his showing against Valuev, Savarese & Rahman.

whats this your slavering on about, "Traing Camps dictating rankings?

come directly to the source of the information --- most of what you post is fabricated or incorrect

[mickey malone]

talk about sit on the fence... Did Douglas ever get poleaxed like Rahman did Twice against Oleg Maskaev?

would Douglas have lost virtually every round against John Ruiz like Rahman did?

would Rahman have beaten McCall like Douglas did?
the same McCall who wiped-out Maskaev in the opener?

Rahman was not even a top 10 ranked fighter unto the Lewis camp had him installed in the ratings at No10 so that they could have a tomato can to fight instead of a ranked fighter like Ruiz, Byrd, Wlad, Vitali, Sanders... Rahman has failed everytime he has fought a fighter rated in the world top 20 with the exception of Lewis..

Go watch his 2 fights with Maskaev or his fight with Sanders, Ruiz or Holyfield and come back here and try and tell me he is better than James`Buster`Douglas

OK... Here's the post where YOU claim that Lewis's camp interfered with the world rankings.. Now read it and weep!

Where did Jab or I claim Rahman is a legend? You will find that we DID NOT!

If Douglas came in at 246 to defend the undisputed HW championship of the world, in his VERY FIRST DEFENSE, then you may as well say yourself, that he was a disgrace to the sport as well as the belts around his bloated gut.. No excuses IMO

For you to say that 46 year old Holyfield's 'dancing around the Maypole' routine against Valuev would be enough to beat Tua is also, laughable.. It's well documented that Tua routinely kicked Evander's ass in sparring...

The only thing you got right is that Byrd DID beat Tua..
I'll hold my hands up to that one.. Now it's YOUR turn!