Where Does Golovkin Rank Among The All Time Middles?

[DeeMoney]

[QUOTE=joseph5620;n32514308]

That's a different topic when comparing resumes of current fighters with past fighters. When doing that I look at the quality of opponents when comparing resumes. For example, Marvin Hagler beating Thomas Hearns and Roberto Duran is a lot more impressive than beating David Lemieux.

As far as common opponents of two fighters, again, that's totally different and there would be a lot of other factors to determine who the better fighter is.

You are right, beating Hearns and Duran is more impressive than beating Lemeiux. You dont have to sell me in Hagler, he is my favorite all time fighter. But the question is still out there, for you or for anyone. Do we look at the fight itself, or do we just say all wins (obviously balancing out for opponent) are wins.
Can a fighter look relatively good within a given fight and that impact your rating of him, or does that no matter?

The common opponent example in my previous post was just used to isolate the variable within the explanation- but I think we are all smart enough to have this discussion without having to constantly re establish that point.

[Dr Z]

[QUOTE=JAB5239;n32514197]

Most of Flowers losses were to HOF fighters. He also beat a boatload of HOF fighters. I'd say his inclusion is anything but questionable.

How many of Flowers' losses and draws were against non-hall of fame fighters, or journeymen? Can you tell me? You need two hands to count them.

NONE of his losses vs non hall of fame fighters would happen if GGG was in the ring vs. them.

Sure-- Flowers is a HOF fighter and deserves to be in there. But a top 10 ATG@160, he is not.

[Dr Z]

[QUOTE=joseph5620;n32514228]

I factor in who they actually beat and who they fought during their careers. In other words the reality of what they actually did. I don't judge based on fantasy in terms of what fighters I think they could have beaten. That's fantasy.

Flowers beat a number of hall of fame fighters and I already explained to you about Ketchel. Golovkin's best win is Danny Jacobs and it wasn't an overly impressive win at that. That's not going to get him on my top 10 list regardless of who people think he could have beaten.

My rankings are based on resume because that's the one real thing we can use. We can't use fantasy fights for that purpose. I can't make it any more clear than that.

Okay, so you don't factor in losses, draws.. to non elite fighters. That figures. Nor do you dig down to examine the ages of the fighters, when the fight happened, DQ's for and against .....and you mainly ignore bad decisions.... like Flowers had over Greb! Shame on that. Smart fans or historians ignore these bogus decisions when factoring in their ratings. I do.




GGG was the #1 pound for pound fighter in the world. Has Flowers achieved that? No he was only #1 for one year in the ranking 1604

GGGs record is immaculate only " losing " to a HOF fighter to be " with crooked judging at a past his prime age.





https://boxrec.com/wiki/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings:_Middleweight--1920s




At least you admit that Ketchel may not belong in the top ten @ 160

[Bronson66]

[QUOTE=Dr Z;n32514368]

Okay, so you don't factor in losses, draws.. to non elite fighters. That figures. Nor do you dig down to examine the ages of the fighters, when the fight happened, DQ's for and against .....and you mainly ignore bad decisions.... like Flowers had over Greb! Shame on that. Smart fans or historians ignore these bogus decisions when factoring in their ratings. I do.




GGG was the #1 pound for pound fighter in the world. Has Flowers achieved that? No he was only #1 for one year in the ranking 1604

GGGs record is immaculate only " losing " to a HOF fighter to be " with crooked judging at a past his prime age.





https://boxrec.com/wiki/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings:_Middleweight--1920s




At least you admit that Ketchel may not belong in the top ten @ 160

Flowers was never ranked the number 1 pound for pound in the world,maybe because it did not exist until1989? lol

[JAB5239]

[QUOTE=Dr Z;n32514363]

How many of Flowers' losses and draws were against non-hall of fame fighters, or journeymen? Can you tell me? You need two hands to count them.

NONE of his losses vs non hall of fame fighters would happen if GGG was in the ring vs. them.

Sure-- Flowers is a HOF fighter and deserves to be in there. But a top 10 ATG@160, he is not.

Saying GGG wouldn't have lost is conjecture. You have no way of knowing that.

Why do you get on these ridiculous crusades because you like a fighter or dislike a fighter? You don't stick to facts.

How many HOF fighters did Golovkin beat in his career? I see zero possibilities on his resume. Could i be wrong? Absolutely. But i can guarantee he hasnt beat as many as Flowers. Flowers had the better career, its as simple as that.

[QueensburyRules]

[QUOTE=JAB5239;n32514395]

Saying GGG wouldn't have lost is conjecture. You have no way of knowing that.

Why do you get on these ridiculous crusades because you like a fighter or dislike a fighter? You don't stick to facts.

How many HOF fighters did Golovkin beat in his career? I see zero possibilities on his resume. Could i be wrong? Absolutely. But i can guarantee he hasnt beat as many as Flowers. Flowers had the better career, its as simple as that.

- - Flowers predates the IBHOF for too many decades for dUmmies to count.

[JAB5239]

[QUOTE=QueensburyRules;n32514448]

- - Flowers predates the IBHOF for too many decades for dUmmies to count.

So does Drmpsey, but you don't mind blowing his horn when it suits you.

[QueensburyRules]

[QUOTE=JAB5239;n32514467]

So does Drmpsey, but you don't mind blowing his horn when it suits you.

- - U The Man From Nantucket on a boxing forum...hilarious...

[JAB5239]

[QUOTE=QueensburyRules;n32514475]

- - U The Man From Nantucket on a boxing forum...hilarious...

Wow, great comeback!!

[Bronson66]

[QUOTE=Dr Z;n32514363]

How many of Flowers' losses and draws were against non-hall of fame fighters, or journeymen? Can you tell me? You need two hands to count them.

NONE of his losses vs non hall of fame fighters would happen if GGG was in the ring vs. them.

Sure-- Flowers is a HOF fighter and deserves to be in there. But a top 10 ATG@160, he is not.

Golovkin had 45 fights.

Flowers had 141.
Flowers was often fighting every week ,and fighting men a weight class heavier.
His losses to :
Kid Norfolk
Walker no2
Lomski no4
Greb
Delaney no4
Bogash
McTigue
Rosenbloom no3
Flynn[Injury]
Jamaica Kid
Panama Joe Gans
[Ratings did not exist before1924]

Are certainly nothing to be ashamed of, an earlier loss to Billy Hooper17-1-1in his 4th fight isn't either.

I very much doubt Golovkin would have only a couple of,losses on his sheet,had he had such a busy schedule and such a stiff level on competition in both the middle and light heavy divisions.