Who actually beats Johnson at his absolute prime?

[Dr Z]

You posted all that nonsense when I said McVey was a novice. He had less than ten fights to his name each time he fought Johnson. Despite being a novice he goes 20 or more rounds with Johnson. How many novice fighters go that distance with a so-called greatest fighter of their generation? You’re overdue for a nap, you’re cranky and delusional.

McVey was a teenager and green.

Check how green Jeanette was. He had few fights and sometimes a losing record or .500 record when he fought Johnson! Yet toward the end of the series he beat Johnson and drew with him. Hmmmm... Jeanette was a fighter with no amateur experience and took up the game late for the time line he fought in.

Langford was estimated to be only 20 year old and listed at 156 pounds. Sam says he was in the 140's when they fought.

Facts do matter.

Most people will accept them, but the fanboys are often ignorant to them or won't.

[Dr Z]

Have you ever seen an all time heavyweight ranking that puts these names above Johnson's?

Where is your all time list? Asking you to produce one with say 20 names on it. Can you do it?

[Dr Z]

OK - but we are still in conjecture land. 'Pollack established' is a vague statement.

I am not challenging JJ's sincerity I am wondering if Australia, not McIntosh, canceled the fights. McIntosh isn't going to tell the press the truth.

Didn't he follow Johnson to France? I know Jack Curley promoted Johnson-Johnson fight, but I think Hugh kept after JJ still trying to make a fight.

Anyway, the way I understand it, it was Hugh McIntosh who gave Al Tearney the 10K forfeit money to hold, not Johnson.

Johnson didn't trust McIntosh, not the other way around. I don't believe Johnson posted any forfeit monies.

Johnson had multiple excuses not to fight Langford, or Jeanette in Australia, France, the UK. Or Chicago. Funny it is not?

If you can't fight in Chicago, why not move it to other states?

I am curious what Pollack says in his Hart book about the Johnson fight. Jack even admitted in a reprinted interview for Boxing Illustrated that Hart beat him good.

I have posted it before.

[Dr Z]

I think he only had one excuse..that he wanted about $30,000.

He not only agreed to fight them in states like Chicago, New York, Boston...but he also agreed to fight them in other countries.

Why not post the interview again so we can take a look. Then we can post the interview of Jeffries saying he could never beat Johnson in his prime and you can explain why you believe one and not the other.

Who was the reporter on the train? It's likey a fictional story. Jeffries clearly says to the press if he was young he would have won. I have told you this before and posted the article. You ignore it .

But okay here is the new information you seek on Hart vs Johnson,.


Boxing Illustrated re-pritned article.
Dec. 1963 article "The case for and against Marvin Hart" reprinted in the June 1989 issue of Boxing Illustrated:

Johnson, in his autobiography In The Ring And Out says surprisingly little about the fight, and such remarks as he did make are caustic: "The fight was not an au****ious one for me, as Hart got the decision, owing, as Tad, the famous sportswriter says, to the fact that in his excitement the referee pointed to the wrong winner." Later, however, Jack, who never was one to heap accolades on an opponent, did admit: "I don't know of any fighter who was better than me when I was in my prime. But there was one who really beat me... and he beat me good. I'm talking about Marvin Hart."


There you have it.

Now are you going to ignore Johnson owns words? What did Pollcak says in his Hart book?

[Bronson66]

McVey was a teenager and green.

Check how green Jeanette was. He had few fights and sometimes a losing record or .500 record when he fought Johnson! Yet toward the end of the series he beat Johnson and drew with him. Hmmmm... Jeanette was a fighter with no amateur experience and took up the game late for the time line he fought in.

Langford was estimated to be only 20 year old and listed at 156 pounds. Sam says he was in the 140's when they fought.

Facts do matter.

Most people will accept them, but the fanboys are often ignorant to them or won't.

Yes facts do matter. Jeannette beat Johnson in their second fight by a disputed foul,not towards the end of their series.
Johnson knocked Jeannette down multiple times in their series,ad he did Langford and McVey ,none of them ever floored him.
Johnson beat Jeannette in their second to last fight when Jeannette had 20 fights under his belt.
You and Ghost have incessantly harped on Johnson being ko'd by Choynski whilst stating
McVey ,Jeannette and Langford were all green when he beat them
Lets look at that. McVey is credited with several fights more than he officially, has below is the rider preceding his first official record.
"McVey had fought twice before coming to Oxnard, once in Salinas and once in Australia; he had a reported record of 6-0-2 prior to this fight."
This makes his record against Johnson.
1st fight 14 fights
2nd fight17 fights
3rd fight18 fights

Langford v Johnson?

Langford 56 fights

Johnson 46 fights.

Johnson had no amateur experience either.

McVey was a month off 20 years old for his third bout with Johnson.

Langford was a month off 21 for his fight withJohnson with 10 more fights under his belt 3 of them against heavies like Jeannette

Jeannette was 25 for his 1st fight with Johnson

Johnson was 21 when he fought Choynski,but you never mention that!

Langford's weight?
On the 13 th of Feb1905 Langford weighed 150lbs to fight Dave Holly.


On the 26th of May that year he weighed 155lbs to fight Young Peter Jackson.

Do you think it likely that in the following11 months, he dropped15 lbs to fight Johnson?


Nobody is saying these men were prime when they fought Johnson,equally Johnson was not prime when he fought them!
Reasonable people will accept facts, haters will not do so if those facts do not jive with their agenda!

[GhostofDempsey]

When did I mention a Smith video?
Why do you think I'm annoyed?
Why would I be?

You're welcome to post all my content from ESB if the Mods here don't object why would I?

When I voluntarily left here I edited out all of my content that I could find to save further discord once I was gone.
It would be nice to see some of my old posts from ESB,so go for it!

Particularly any interaction with Clay which you say will embarrass me.

Death by a thousand cuts? Are you sure you aren't the one with a drink problem?

Why do you think I'm a big drinker?
Unless its a particular occasion like the vocal gig Thursday night, I only drink week ends
What made you think I was on the internet Thursday night,I had already told you what I was doing?

You keep projecting about me,and now you are constructing a persona for me that could not be further from the truth,it's positively weird!

I'll try just once more,to get something sensible going here.

Since you say McVey was not a great fighter,how do you account for him;
Beating Langford twice and holding him to a draw 6 times?

Beating Martin 3 times.

Beating Clark multiple times.

Beating Jeannette and holding him to a draw twice.

Beating Wills twice.
If McVey wasn't great,.doesn't it necessarily follow that they weren't either?

I'd also like you to breakdown why you think Johnson would lose to, Jeannette.Langford, and McVey prime for prime, which of their results indicate this would be the case?

Also, what leads you to believe that Johnson would lose to Loughran,Gibbons.Schmeling, and Patterson?

Have you ever seen an all time heavyweight ranking that puts these names above Johnson's?

All that angry blubbering and deflection…where is your source that Johnson struggled with Battling Jim as you claimed? You badgered me for 17 pages insisting on a source but you yourself haven’t produced one.

You claim there is a video interview out there of Smith saying he didn’t knock Johnson through the ropes. Where is this video?

[QueensburyRules]

- - Prime JJohnson here is exceedingly underwhelming for the most part

Jess Willard

238½

22 5 2

Oriental Park, Havana

L-KO

26/45

event bout score wiki

1:26 ref: Jack Welsh World Heavyweight Title

1914-06-27

221½

Frank Moran

203

26 9 5

Velodrome d'Hiver, Paris

W-PTS

20/20

event bout score wiki

ref: Georges Carpentier World Heavyweight Title

1913-12-19

213¾

Battling Jim Johnson

222¾

28 10 5

Élysée Montmartre, Paris

D-PTS

10/10

event bout score wiki

ref: Emile Maitrot M Oudin Franz Reichel World Heavyweight Title One ringside report said that the spectators loudly protested that the men were not fighting and demanded their money back. Jack Johnson said he injured his left arm in the third round and could not use it, but ringsiders said he used his left often and likely fractured it when both fell to the mat in the tenth round. Post-fight examination revealed a slight fracture of the radial in his left arm. In August it had been widely reported by Joe Woodman that Johnson had agreed to terms to fight Sam Langford in Paris. Weights per La Presse Tale of the Tape: 97kg Jack Johnson, 101kg Jim Johnson. New Haven union., December 24, 1913, stated that the French Boxing Federation had started an investigation of the fight, believing Johnson's nephew Gus Rhodes had passed himself of as Battling Jim Johnson.

1912-07-04

212

Fireman Jim Flynn

193

60 15 20

East Las Vegas

W-DQ

9/45

event bout score wiki

ref: Edward W Smith World Heavyweight Title The referee repeatedly warned Flynn for head-butting. (Fight film shows Flynn head-butting, trying to get loose while the taller Johnson holds him at the back of his upper arms. Flynn reportedly hurled racial epithets at Johnson, too.) The sheriff climbed into the ring to stop this bout and referee Smith awarded it to Johnson on a foul.

1910-07-04

208

James J Jeffries

227

19 0 2

Reno

W-TKO

15/45

event bout score wiki

2:20 ref: Tex Rickard World Heavyweight Title Reportedly the first time a venue was constructed specifically for one boxing show. (Promoter & Referee: Tex Rickard. United States President Taft declined Rickard's telegraphed offer to referee.) Tommy Burns, Jake Kilraine, Abe Attell and others were introduced to the crowd of 16, 528.

1909-10-16

205½

Stanley Ketchel

170¼

48 4 3

Mission Street Arena, Colma

W-KO

12/20

event bout score wiki

ref: Jack Welsh World Heavyweight Title

1909-09-09

209

Al Kaufman

191

19 1 0

Coffroth's Arena, San Francisco

W-NWS

10/10

event bout score wiki

ref: Eddie Smith World Heavyweight title "Jack Johnson had no trouble winning a 'newspaper' decision over Al Kaufman this afternoon in ten rounds. There was an agreement that no decision was to be rendered if both were on their feet at the end. Johnson landed almost at will, while Kaufman got in only two effective blows. It appeared as though Johnson could have ended the fight at any time." (Associated Press)

1909-06-30

207

Tony Ross

214

12 8 4

Duquesne Gardens, Pittsburgh

W-NWS

6/6

event bout score wiki

ref: Buck Cornelius The Pittsburgh Post did not consider this to be a title fight. There was no decision, but Johnson was an easy winner. Johnson sent Ross down for a count of nine in the first round. Ross went down again in the third for a count of eight. In the fourth round, Ross landed his only telling blow of the fight, a vicious right hand that shook Johnson. Johnson battered Ross over the last two rounds.

1909-05-19

205

Philadelphia Jack O'Brien

162½

144 11 23

National A.C., Philadelphia

D-NWS

6/6

event bout score wiki

ref: Jack McGuigan "Three or four times during the mix-ups, O'Brien was roughed to the floor, and once he got tangled in the ropes." (Philadelphia Inquirer). The Philadelphia Inquirer scored for Johnson. Wilkes-Barre Times Leader had O'Brien winning three rounds, with two even, and 5th round to Johnson (same report was printed in NY Sun and Washington Herald). The NY Times ruled it a draw. Trenton Times reported that the referee stated he thought O'Brien the winner by a shade. The Sports editor of the Philadelphia Inquirer in May 23 issue wrote: "A half dozen writers, for instance, gave Johnson the credit of having won the bout, but no two of them agreed as to the distance by which he won, and if you read all these accounts you must have come to the conclusion that he won at any distance from a whisker to a city block. And it was the same with the able gentlemen who espoused the O'Brien cause. Some declared that he won all the way, and that but for his willingness to take the initiative there would have been no milling at all, while others gave him the decision solely for the splendid showing he made against such a tremendous physical handicap." The Philadelphia Item stated that O'Brien soundly out-boxed Johnson. All-in-all, it seems that the best choice would be to show it as a draw.

1908-12-26

194

Tommy Burns

[Bronson66]

- - prime jjohnson here is exceedingly underwhelming for the most part

jess willard

238½

22 5 2

oriental park, havana

l-ko

26/45

event bout score wiki

1:26 ref: jack welsh world heavyweight title

1914-06-27

221½

frank moran

203

26 9 5

velodrome d'hiver, paris

w-pts

20/20

event bout score wiki

ref: georges carpentier world heavyweight title

1913-12-19

213¾

battling jim johnson

222¾

28 10 5

élysée montmartre, paris

d-pts

10/10

event bout score wiki

ref: emile maitrot m oudin franz reichel world heavyweight title one ringside report said that the spectators loudly protested that the men were not fighting and demanded their money back. Jack johnson said he injured his left arm in the third round and could not use it, but ringsiders said he used his left often and likely fractured it when both fell to the mat in the tenth round. Post-fight examination revealed a slight fracture of the radial in his left arm. In august it had been widely reported by joe woodman that johnson had agreed to terms to fight sam langford in paris. Weights per la presse tale of the tape: 97kg jack johnson, 101kg jim johnson. New haven union., december 24, 1913, stated that the french boxing federation had started an investigation of the fight, believing johnson's nephew gus rhodes had passed himself of as battling jim johnson.

1912-07-04

212

fireman jim flynn

193

60 15 20

east las vegas

w-dq

9/45

event bout score wiki

ref: edward w smith world heavyweight title the referee repeatedly warned flynn for head-butting. (fight film shows flynn head-butting, trying to get loose while the taller johnson holds him at the back of his upper arms. Flynn reportedly hurled racial epithets at johnson, too.) the sheriff climbed into the ring to stop this bout and referee smith awarded it to johnson on a foul.

1910-07-04

208

james j jeffries

227

19 0 2

reno

w-tko

15/45

event bout score wiki

2:20 ref: tex rickard world heavyweight title reportedly the first time a venue was constructed specifically for one boxing show. (promoter & referee: Tex rickard. United states president taft declined rickard's telegraphed offer to referee.) tommy burns, jake kilraine, abe attell and others were introduced to the crowd of 16, 528.

1909-10-16

205½

stanley ketchel

170¼

48 4 3

mission street arena, colma

w-ko

12/20

event bout score wiki

ref: jack welsh world heavyweight title

1909-09-09

209

al kaufman

191

19 1 0

coffroth's arena, san francisco

w-nws

10/10

event bout score wiki

ref: eddie smith world heavyweight title "jack johnson had no trouble winning a 'newspaper' decision over al kaufman this afternoon in ten rounds. There was an agreement that no decision was to be rendered if both were on their feet at the end. Johnson landed almost at will, while kaufman got in only two effective blows. It appeared as though johnson could have ended the fight at any time." (associated press)

1909-06-30

207

tony ross

214

12 8 4

duquesne gardens, pittsburgh

w-nws

6/6

event bout score wiki

ref: buck cornelius the pittsburgh post did not consider this to be a title fight. There was no decision, but johnson was an easy winner. Johnson sent ross down for a count of nine in the first round. Ross went down again in the third for a count of eight. In the fourth round, ross landed his only telling blow of the fight, a vicious right hand that shook johnson. Johnson battered ross over the last two rounds.

1909-05-19

205

philadelphia jack o'brien

162½

144 11 23

national a.c., philadelphia

d-nws

6/6

event bout score wiki

ref: jack mcguigan "three or four times during the mix-ups, o'brien was roughed to the floor, and once he got tangled in the ropes." (philadelphia inquirer). The philadelphia inquirer scored for johnson. Wilkes-barre times leader had o'brien winning three rounds, with two even, and 5th round to johnson (same report was printed in ny sun and washington herald). The ny times ruled it a draw. Trenton times reported that the referee stated he thought o'brien the winner by a shade. The sports editor of the philadelphia inquirer in may 23 issue wrote: "a half dozen writers, for instance, gave johnson the credit of having won the bout, but no two of them agreed as to the distance by which he won, and if you read all these accounts you must have come to the conclusion that he won at any distance from a whisker to a city block. And it was the same with the able gentlemen who espoused the o'brien cause. Some declared that he won all the way, and that but for his willingness to take the initiative there would have been no milling at all, while others gave him the decision solely for the splendid showing he made against such a tremendous physical handicap." the philadelphia item stated that o'brien soundly out-boxed johnson. All-in-all, it seems that the best choice would be to show it as a draw.

1908-12-26

194

tommy burns

yes, johnson was nothing but a journeyman !

[Dr Z]

That statement: "I don't know of any fighter who was better than me when I was in my prime. But there was one who really beat me... and he beat me good. I'm talking about Marvin Hart," is NOT in his autobiography.

What you posted does not appear to be an interview at all. It's a reprinted ARTICLE from 1963. Where does the quoted statement come from, because it is NOT in "In The Ring And Out."

You are not reading well. Johnson said little about the match in his autobiography. You likely do not own In and Out are even more unlikely to know what he specifically said.

Moreover this is just your knee jerk reaction. Somehow I doubt you own it, but you do have a rare chance to prove yourself. Take a photo the book, and list the pages in your smartphone and post them here. We shall see what Johnson said.


Step up to the plate.

[Bronson66]

All that angry blubbering and deflection…where is your source that Johnson struggled with Battling Jim as you claimed? You badgered me for 17 pages insisting on a source but you yourself haven’t produced one.

You claim there is a video interview out there of Smith saying he didn’t knock Johnson through the ropes. Where is this video?

No angry blubbering, I just asked you a couple of questions for the second time,about the names you claimed would all beat Johnson you haven't replied .so,if anyone is deflecting it is you.
I badgered you about your claim that Johnson was lucky to get a draw,asking you for your source for the remark?
You still haven't answered that either. I said Gunboat Smith gave a taped interview in his own home in1972 .I did NOT say it was video taped.Nor did I NOT say Johnson was not knocked partially through the ropes,what I took issue with was your spurious claim that he was dropped heavily,when he himself did not claim that.
Earlier you said I came home drunk Thursday night and posted here, I didn't, now you are saying , I said Smith's interview was video'd,I didn't.
Lack of reading comprehension?
Are you sure you aren't Matchmaker,DrZ,Mendoza ,Maginot, etc, doing a double act,because he is illiterate too?lol