Who actually beats Johnson at his absolute prime?

[Bronson66]

Where does it say he was in the ropes? Smith said he knocked him through the ropes. Through means he went through the ropes and had to land somewhere. When Joe Smith knocked Hopkins THROUGH the ropes he landed outside the ring on his head. When Firpo knocked Dempsey through the ropes he landed on his back outside of the ring. Nowhere does Smith say Johnson was held up by the ropes. He said “through the ropes and damn near out of the Seal Rock theater.” You are either making up false outcomes again or still struggling with reading comprehension. Either way you are petty and dishonest.

You posted 20 paragraphs and still ducked my questions.

Why did you say Johnson struggled with Battling Jim…where is your primary source?

I don’t need a source to tell me McVey was competitive with Johnson, I’ve explained it to your stubborn ass over and over. Go back and read my responses. A 19 year old with only three fights goes twenty rounds with prime Johnson. The champion Burns couldn’t even do that. McVey was more competitive than the no-hopers who Johnson gave title shots to.

I named fighters who I believe would best Johnson. Based on their respective skills, ability, resumes, fighting style, and Johnson’s avoidance of tougher challenges while champion. Not every opinion needs to be quantified with a 20 paragraph long-winded rant. Especially when you are repeating yourself like a broken record and moving goal posts.

Explain why left Jabber Loughran who couldn't punch his way out of a paper bag,beats Johnson ?

At Middle Lhy and Hvy Loughran lost to:

Maulers like Godoy and Riskox2,Sekyra,Levinsky

Fringe contenders like *****x2,Bogash.

Lhvy's like Delaney,Stribling x2

Middles like Greb x3,McTigue,Smith

Hvys like Schaaf x2 Carnera, Farr,Sharkey ,by tko

Yet he beats Johnson?

Since he isn't knocking Johnson out he must out box him,correct?

Which of those who beat him is a better boxer than Johnson?

NB Johnson struggled with broken arm ,not with Battling Jim!

[Dr Z]

You based your picks on hatred of Johnson,that is palpably obvious.
For example.
Why do you think Loughran, basically a one handed left jab artist beats Johnson?
Why do you think Gibbons ,who could not win a decision over a rusty Dempsey beats Johnson?
McVey was nearly 40lbs heavier than Burns and had a better chin,why don't you factor that in?

McVey has several fights that were not recorded you know this but ignore it,because it doesnt fit into the narrative you want to project its just dishonest BS on your part.

You ignore literally dozens of contemporary reports that state unequivocally , that McVey was totally and thoroughly out classed and beaten up in his three fights with Johnson,again because it directly contradicts your narrative.

You outright refuse to answer questions about what you know about those fights

What reports you have read?

How many rounds were credited to McVey?

How many times was he knocked down?

Because you are not interested in the truth,only in pursuing your hate agenda,not only are you lying to the forum,with your ridiculous assertions,but you are lying to yourself!


You're not a poster on a boxing forum ,you're are a propagandist for a hate campaign!
Goebbels would have been proud of you!

I think Loughran would be Johnson's best title opponent aside from Willard who knocked him out. Judging by the trouble O'brien who was listed at 162.5 lbs gave Johnson ( some felt O'brein was the better him in a 6 round fight ) ,a match would be interesting to see. I think Loughran is more durable than O'brein by a good amout.

Gibbons is even better than Loughran.

McVey was a teeneger and very in-expericed. Not even close to what he would become. Johnson won easily.

Why don't you list Johnson's best 5 wins taking into consideration the ages, activity levels and working conditions of the fighters and we can debate them?

I will say that Tommy Burns a 5'7" and 168 pounds of him, a super middle weight was his best win.

[Bronson66]

Where does it say he was in the ropes? Smith said he knocked him through the ropes. Through means he went through the ropes and had to land somewhere. When Joe Smith knocked Hopkins THROUGH the ropes he landed outside the ring on his head. When Firpo knocked Dempsey through the ropes he landed on his back outside of the ring. Nowhere does Smith say Johnson was held up by the ropes. He said “through the ropes and damn near out of the Seal Rock theater.” You are either making up false outcomes again or still struggling with reading comprehension. Either way you are petty and dishonest.

You posted 20 paragraphs and still ducked my questions.

Why did you say Johnson struggled with Battling Jim…where is your primary source?

I don’t need a source to tell me McVey was competitive with Johnson, I’ve explained it to your stubborn ass over and over. Go back and read my responses. A 19 year old with only three fights goes twenty rounds with prime Johnson. The champion Burns couldn’t even do that. McVey was more competitive than the no-hopers who Johnson gave title shots to.

I named fighters who I believe would best Johnson. Based on their respective skills, ability, resumes, fighting style, and Johnson’s avoidance of tougher challenges while champion. Not every opinion needs to be quantified with a 20 paragraph long-winded rant. Especially when you are repeating yourself like a broken record and moving goal posts.

You based your picks on hatred of Johnson,that is palpably obvious.
For example.
Why do you think Loughran, basically a one handed left jab artist beats Johnson?
Why do you think Gibbons ,who could not win a decision over a rusty Dempsey beats Johnson?
McVey was nearly 40lbs heavier than Burns and had a better chin,why don't you factor that in?

McVey has several fights that were not recorded you know this but ignore it,because it doesnt fit into the narrative you want to project its just dishonest BS on your part.

McVey is believed to have had 14 fights when he first fought Johnson.so where did you get the number 3 from?
You made up the following lies about my posts
You've claimed that I have bragged about Johnson beating.
Kaufman
Fitzsimmons

When did I do that, produce the posts?

You claim:
"Little Burns lasted only 14 yet you tout his greatness." Which of my posts say this?

You ignore literally dozens of contemporary reports that state unequivocally , that McVey was totally and thoroughly out classed and beaten up in his three fights with Johnson,again because it directly contradicts your narrative.

You outright refuse to answer questions about what you know about those fights?
The answer is of course **** all!

What reports you have read?

How many rounds were credited to McVey?

How many times was he knocked down?

Because you are not interested in the truth,only in pursuing your hate agenda,not only are you lying to the forum,with your ridiculous assertions,but you are lying to yourself!


You're not a poster on a boxing forum ,you're a propagandist for a hate campaign!
Goebbels would have been proud of you!

[Willie Pep 229]

Never mind. Found what I was looking for.

[GhostofDempsey]

He didn't land anywhere, he was in the ropes.
You stated he was dropped heavily and that is NOT in the book!
That is just another," little addition," you have made to try and make more of a sparring session than it warrants.

It's an old Dr Z trick he has been doing this **** for years and now you are copying him.


I'm neither crying or mad. I'm sitting at my desk, in my study, having cup of tea on this Monday morning after a great Sunday lunchtime of Jazz yesterday,and mulling over the fight results over the week end.

Where have I complained about you trawling my ESB posts? I'm gratified you are doing so and take it as a compliment!
Why do you insist on making these absurd mental projections about me?

I've told you I welcome you putting any of my posts up from ESB, if the mods here don't mind, why would I?

I should point out that as there are nearly 96,000 of them,you have plenty to choose from,so fill your boots!

I see you have quietly dropped the claims that I:

1.Posted drunk on here Thursday night.

2.Claimed to have a video recording of GunBoat Smith giving an interview.

A retraction on your part would have been nice, but I didn't expect one ,and of course one was not forthcoming !lol

You claim I am playing gotcha ,well here are just some of the questions you have consistently refused to answer.

1.Post a primary source that states McVey was competitive against Johnson ,in any of their three fights?

2.How many rounds were awarded to McVey in each of those three fights?

3.Have you even ever actually read a round by round report of any of those three fights?

4.How many times was McVey knocked down?

His face was described as looking like ,,"an overripe tomato," "like a goat had chewed on it," "one side was 3 inches out of plumb."

Johnson finished each fight unmarked.

You just can't admit Johnson gave him three terrible beatings ,something every single newspaper that covered the fights were unanimous in stating.
You did NOT say the following fights would be 50/50 that is a new "dilution", of your original post.
.
You've claimed that Johnson would lose to among others ;
Loughran
Gibbons
Sharkey
Wills
McVey
Jeannette
Langford
Charles
Walcott
Patterson
That ,"at their best they would all be favoured to beat him."

When I asked you how you formed this opinion you had no answer.

Have you ever seen an all time heavyweight list that has those names ranked above Johnson's?

The Johnson v Battling Jim fight.
"During the first three rounds he was obviously playing with his opponent.
After that it was observed that he was only using his right hand. When the fight was over he complained that his arm had been injured. Doctors who made an examination certified to a slight fracture of the radius of the left arm. The general opinion is that his arm was injured in a wrestling match early in the week, and that a blow to-night caused the fracture of the bone."

You've claimed that I have bragged about Johnson beating.
Kaufman
Fitzsimmons

When did I do that, produce the posts?

You claim:
"Little Burns lasted only 14 yet you tout his greatness." Which of my posts say this?

You're ,"in denial ," attitude is not only illogical and flying directly in the face of published facts,its totally nonsensical and makes you look ridiculous.

Every unbiased poster knows and can give examples of fights in which a boxer was totally outclassed and not competitive, yet gutted it out to last the distance,and I gave several.
Calzaghe v Lacy
Holmes v Cobb
Langford v Johnson
Munroe v Johnson
Briggs v Vitali
Are just a few that came easily to mind.
None of these fights were competitive,all went the distance!
Its common knowledge Johnson was a defensive fighter ,content to win a fight without taking risks,fighters going the distance with him who had no chance at all include.
Ferguson several times,Ross, and Kaufman. That does not imply they were ever dangerous to him!

What baffles me slightly is, I haven't even given an opinion on Johnson's chances against the heavyweights across the years,yet here you are, frothing at the mouth,like some demented Husband whose Wife's honour has been brought into question!

Let it go Fella ,life's too short to spend it hating a man who died decades before you were born!
Leave all that,hatred ,spite, and venom to Dr Z, it's his only," raison d' etre".

You might have more to you,though God knows you've kept it well hidden so far! lol

Cheer up though,if you do as I suggest , you can concentrate all that venom on me,you obviously need an outlet for it, and I can be your Aunt Sally the one to throw all your crap at! LOL

Enjoy this Monday morning,its good to be still around you know!


ps r.e. My ESB posts I suggest you start with my interaction with Clay ,it should be a useful beginning.

Ciao!

Where does it say he was in the ropes? Smith said he knocked him through the ropes. Through means he went through the ropes and had to land somewhere. When Joe Smith knocked Hopkins THROUGH the ropes he landed outside the ring on his head. When Firpo knocked Dempsey through the ropes he landed on his back outside of the ring. Nowhere does Smith say Johnson was held up by the ropes. He said “through the ropes and damn near out of the Seal Rock theater.” You are either making up false outcomes again or still struggling with reading comprehension. Either way you are petty and dishonest.

You posted 20 paragraphs and still ducked my questions.

Why did you say Johnson struggled with Battling Jim…where is your primary source?

I don’t need a source to tell me McVey was competitive with Johnson, I’ve explained it to your stubborn ass over and over. Go back and read my responses. A 19 year old with only three fights goes twenty rounds with prime Johnson. The champion Burns couldn’t even do that. McVey was more competitive than the no-hopers who Johnson gave title shots to.

I named fighters who I believe would best Johnson. Based on their respective skills, ability, resumes, fighting style, and Johnson’s avoidance of tougher challenges while champion. Not every opinion needs to be quantified with a 20 paragraph long-winded rant. Especially when you are repeating yourself like a broken record and moving goal posts.

[Bronson66]

I do know what specifically he said in that book. Do YOU own it?

I know he didn't say that in the book. So where is the quotation from?



LMAO. I accept under the condition you come back and admit you're a lying moron who is wrong
He did say the ref pointed to the wrong man. But the other quotation....nowhere to be found. How about you taking a screenshot of it and posting it in that book

Step up to the plate.

‘I was robbed. That is all there is to it. I thought a good fight and am satisfied with the showing I made. I got the worst of it. Had I had my way I would never have stood for Greggains at any stage, but it was all Abrams’ say and I have to suffer. I will take Hart out tomorrow, or any other old time, and if I don’t lick him to a standstill I don’t want a cent. I put up the best fight I knew how and was satisfied that I was a winner at every stage. I have no excuses to offer, but only say emphatically that I was robbed. Early in the battle I injured my right hand, dislocating my thumb. Outside of that injury, I was not hurt the last bit. Hart’s blows did me no damage.’"

"The National Police Gazette which was the Ring magazine of that day wrote, April 15 1905, “In the first ten rounds Johnson easily demonstrated his superiority. After that Hart made a better showing but he did not have the better of the going and a draw would have been a present to him.” Johnson deserved to win and would have easily won on points by any modern boxing observers estimation of the fight."


It appears that most fairminded writers felt that Johnson deserved the verdict,though several writers agreed the decision was justified,a draw might have been a more appropriate decision,even giving Hart the benefit of the doubt as a result of his gameness.Alex Greggains was not the most neutral unbiased arbiter.Greggains was a promoter.promoters needed to fill seats in order to make money,and therefore Greggains was concerned with fan opinion,for the fans generated dollars.
Fans typically liked an agressive hard -punching ,busy fighter like Hart particularly when he was white and fighting black man.The white fans cheered everything Hart did ,but remained silent when Johnson did well.
Being black didn't help Johnson and the writers clearly admitted and agreed that race played a part in the analysis and the lack of fan support for Johnson.Greggains had to be influenced by the fans at least on a subconscious level.Pollack.
Also even if only on a subconscious level Greggains had to be influenced and biased by economics.Awarding Johnson the decision did nothing for Greggains because Jeffries would refuse to fight Johnson.A Hart victory would be more popular wuth the white paying public and might lead to a big payday with a Jeffries-Hart promotion.
Hence Greggains a promoter ,and referee had a clear interest in having Hart win. He wanted to promote a hart Jeffries fight the only one that Jeffries might accept.therefore he naturally would have more of an inclination and incentive to award the bout to Hart.One has to consider all the rpe-fight talk that the fight was either fixed for Hart to win if it went the distance,or that Johnson had agreed to knock him out or lose.
Even Hart was quoted accordingly by his hometown newspapers.This combined with the Hart faction insisting on Greggains and accepting no other referee put forth by Johnson even ones considered wise and fair must give a moment of pause.Pollack
"I did not want Alex to referee,but Hart would not take Welch or Graney,whom I mentioned.Hart said it was Greggains or nobody "Johnson. Johnson stated that Greggains never told him he had to be aggressive ,"I want to say that he never did any such thing.All he said before the gong sounded was "You fellows know the rules don't you?"
Johnson said he hurt his hands in the 6th round ,which prevented him from carrying out his intention of a knockout within 10 rounds.
Perhaps it is telling that Greggains would not referee a big bout for the next five years.Greggains had refereed the Jeffries v Sharkey first fight and several other lesser bouts.After this decision though he fell of f the map as an official.Pollack

"I am glad Marvin Hart won over Johnson last night.Not that it means a prospective candidate for my title ,but it places the negro out of the running.If Johnson had won he would never have fought me.My decision never to meet a negro while I am champion would have been faithfully kept. "Jim Jeffries.

[Bronson66]

I have the book, I posted the exact quote. I said he knocked him through the ropes. So where did Johnson land when he went through the ropes? On the floor or the ceiling?

In my opinion they beat Johnson, but to say definitively they would is impossible. 50/50 is fair. You should accept it instead of trying to play gotcha and duck my questions.

It took me mere seconds to find your posts which you are still crying about like a toddler. You’re so mad I pointed out your double standard. You still haven’t posted your primary source that Johnson struggled with Battling Jim. Why did you say that?

I’m not obsessed. You behave like an arrogant know-it-all on this forum and the others. You typically quote me first. You had numerous opportunities to post sources but refuse. You had numerous opportunities to walk away from this exchange but you are a glutton for pain and humiliation and keep coming back for more. Now you want to cry about it.

He didn't land anywhere, he was in the ropes.
You stated he was dropped heavily and that is NOT in the book!
That is just another," little addition," you have made to try and make more of a sparring session than it warrants.

It's an old Dr Z trick he has been doing this **** for years and now you are copying him.


I'm neither crying or mad. I'm sitting at my desk, in my study, having cup of tea on this Monday morning after a great Sunday lunchtime of Jazz yesterday,and mulling over the fight results over the week end.

Where have I complained about you trawling my ESB posts? I'm gratified you are doing so and take it as a compliment!
Why do you insist on making these absurd mental projections about me?

I've told you I welcome you putting any of my posts up from ESB, if the mods here don't mind, why would I?

I should point out that as there are nearly 96,000 of them,you have plenty to choose from,so fill your boots!

I see you have quietly dropped the claims that I:

1.Posted drunk on here Thursday night.

2.Claimed to have a video recording of GunBoat Smith giving an interview.

A retraction on your part would have been nice, but I didn't expect one ,and of course one was not forthcoming !lol

You claim I am playing gotcha ,well here are just some of the questions you have consistently refused to answer.

1.Post a primary source that states McVey was competitive against Johnson ,in any of their three fights?

2.How many rounds were awarded to McVey in each of those three fights?

3.Have you even ever actually read a round by round report of any of those three fights?

4.How many times was McVey knocked down?

His face was described as looking like ,,"an overripe tomato," "like a goat had chewed on it," "one side was 3 inches out of plumb."

Johnson finished each fight unmarked.

You just can't admit Johnson gave him three terrible beatings ,something every single newspaper that covered the fights were unanimous in stating.
You did NOT say the following fights would be 50/50 that is a new "dilution", of your original post.
.
You've claimed that Johnson would lose to among others ;
Loughran
Gibbons
Sharkey
Wills
McVey
Jeannette
Langford
Charles
Walcott
Patterson
That ,"at their best they would all be favoured to beat him."

When I asked you how you formed this opinion you had no answer.

Have you ever seen an all time heavyweight list that has those names ranked above Johnson's?

The Johnson v Battling Jim fight.
"During the first three rounds he was obviously playing with his opponent.
After that it was observed that he was only using his right hand. When the fight was over he complained that his arm had been injured. Doctors who made an examination certified to a slight fracture of the radius of the left arm. The general opinion is that his arm was injured in a wrestling match early in the week, and that a blow to-night caused the fracture of the bone."

You've claimed that I have bragged about Johnson beating.
Kaufman
Fitzsimmons

When did I do that, produce the posts?

You claim:
"Little Burns lasted only 14 yet you tout his greatness." Which of my posts say this?

You're ,"in denial ," attitude is not only illogical and flying directly in the face of published facts,its totally nonsensical and makes you look ridiculous.

Every unbiased poster knows and can give examples of fights in which a boxer was totally outclassed and not competitive, yet gutted it out to last the distance,and I gave several.
Calzaghe v Lacy
Holmes v Cobb
Langford v Johnson
Munroe v Johnson
Briggs v Vitali
Are just a few that came easily to mind.
None of these fights were competitive,all went the distance!
Its common knowledge Johnson was a defensive fighter ,content to win a fight without taking risks,fighters going the distance with him who had no chance at all include.
Ferguson several times,Ross, and Kaufman. That does not imply they were ever dangerous to him!

What baffles me slightly is, I haven't even given an opinion on Johnson's chances against the heavyweights across the years,yet here you are, frothing at the mouth,like some demented Husband whose Wife's honour has been brought into question!

Let it go Fella ,life's too short to spend it hating a man who died decades before you were born!
Leave all that,hatred ,spite, and venom to Dr Z, it's his only," raison d' etre".

You might have more to you,though God knows you've kept it well hidden so far! lol

Cheer up though,if you do as I suggest , you can concentrate all that venom on me,you obviously need an outlet for it, and I can be your Aunt Sally the one to throw all your crap at! LOL

Enjoy this Monday morning,its good to be still around you know!


ps r.e. My ESB posts I suggest you start with my interaction with Clay ,it should be a useful beginning.

Ciao!

[GhostofDempsey]

Are you actually this dumb?The recording is the taped interview with Heller! WTF!!

You did not say McVey, Langford and Jeannette would all be 50/50 fights,you said they would all beat Johnson!
Do I have to post your quotes ?

Will you answer my questions?

For the record I am neither drunk,raging,blubbering, or in a temper ,I don't know where you conjure up these scenarios from?

Probably from the same place you insist McVey was competitive with Johnson, and Johnson was lucky to get a draw with Battling Jim!

You, by your own admission spent,God knows how long trawling through posts I made 12 years ago in a forlorn effort to trip me up!

You are as fixated and obsessed as DR Z,but do not appear to know it!
Get some help quick!
Before you become as big a laughing stock as he is!

I have the book, I posted the exact quote. I said he knocked him through the ropes. So where did Johnson land when he went through the ropes? On the floor or the ceiling?

In my opinion they beat Johnson, but to say definitively they would is impossible. 50/50 is fair. You should accept it instead of trying to play gotcha and duck my questions.

It took me mere seconds to find your posts which you are still crying about like a toddler. You’re so mad I pointed out your double standard. You still haven’t posted your primary source that Johnson struggled with Battling Jim. Why did you say that?

I’m not obsessed. You behave like an arrogant know-it-all on this forum and the others. You typically quote me first. You had numerous opportunities to post sources but refuse. You had numerous opportunities to walk away from this exchange but you are a glutton for pain and humiliation and keep coming back for more. Now you want to cry about it.

[Bronson66]

Lying again as usual. I already answered your questions but you’re either purposely running this in circles again or too senile to remember. McVey, Jeannette, Langford would all be 50/50 fihts and perhaps even favorited to beat Johnson while they were in their respective primes. If he had the balls to give them title shows we would have known.

You badgered me about my source for Johnson struggling with Battling Jim. Two quick examples but you have yet to provide that source, where is it?

IMG_3354.jpg IMG_3353.jpg

Ok, so where is the recorded interview of Smith declaring he partially knocked Johnson through the ropes. You keep squirming and dancing around my questions. Answer them directly and stop with the petty semantics. I posted his quote directly from Heller’s interview. Where is this recording you claim exists?

Are you actually this dumb?The recording is the taped interview with Heller! WTF!!

You did not say McVey, Langford and Jeannette would all be 50/50 fights,you said they would all beat Johnson!
Do I have to post your quotes ?

Will you answer my questions?

For the record I am neither drunk,raging,blubbering, or in a temper ,I don't know where you conjure up these scenarios from?

Probably from the same place you insist McVey was competitive with Johnson, and Johnson was lucky to get a draw with Battling Jim!

You, by your own admission spent,God knows how long trawling through posts I made 12 years ago in a forlorn effort to trip me up!

You are as fixated and obsessed as DR Z,but do not appear to know it!
Get some help quick!
Before you become as big a laughing stock as he is!

[GhostofDempsey]

No angry blubbering, I just asked you a couple of questions for the second time,about the names you claimed would all beat Johnson you haven't replied .so,if anyone is deflecting it is you.
I badgered you about your claim that Johnson was lucky to get a draw,asking you for your source for the remark?
You still haven't answered that either. I said Gunboat Smith gave a taped interview in his own home in1972 .I did NOT say it was video taped.Nor did I NOT say Johnson was not knocked partially through the ropes,what I took issue with was your spurious claim that he was dropped heavily,when he himself did not claim that.
Earlier you said I came home drunk Thursday night and posted here, I didn't, now you are saying , I said Smith's interview was video'd,I didn't.
Lack of reading comprehension?
Are you sure you aren't Matchmaker,DrZ,Mendoza , etc, doing a double act,because he is illiterate too?lol

Lying again as usual. I already answered your questions but you’re either purposely running this in circles again or too senile to remember. McVey, Jeannette, Langford would all be 50/50 fihts and perhaps even favorited to beat Johnson while they were in their respective primes. If he had the balls to give them title shows we would have known.

You badgered me about my source for Johnson struggling with Battling Jim. Two quick examples but you have yet to provide that source, where is it?

IMG_3354.jpg IMG_3353.jpg

Ok, so where is the recorded interview of Smith declaring he partially knocked Johnson through the ropes. You keep squirming and dancing around my questions. Answer them directly and stop with the petty semantics. I posted his quote directly from Heller’s interview. Where is this recording you claim exists?