Jack Johnson &Al Kaufman

[solidman]

I doubt he was as good as Johnson and Dempsey

[Dr Z]

But, having never seen him fight,you are sure he would have beaten Johnson in1914 and later Dempsey?

Yeah ok.LOL

I never saw Greb fight either, but I think he would have beaten Johnson from 1916 and beyond. Tell us who you like in the fantasy match up.

Unlike yourself, I understand how to interpret ring results with dates and factor in a fighter working condition in the given time.

Getting back to McCarty he did better vs. Kaufman than Johnson! He likey did better vs. Moran too. And Flynn. Johnson fought these 2nd raters for title shots.

[Bronson66]

I never saw Greb fight either, but I think he would have beaten Johnson from 1916 and beyond. Tell us who you like in the fantasy match up.

Unlike yourself, I understand how to interpret ring results with dates and factor in a fighter working condition in the given time.

Getting back to McCarty he did better vs. Kaufman than Johnson! He likey did better vs. Moran too. And Flynn. Johnson fought these 2nd raters for title shots.

Edited

[Dr Z]

I saw a photo on FB ,which I thought it might be of interest to the forum.
I don't need nor do I wish to indulge your obsessive hatred of Jack Johnson,with a lot of back and forth.

You've just got a thread about boxers who wouldn't quit closed,by turning it into a fixated flame war.

You posted Jack **** about the subject of the thread,just a lot of vitriolic BS about Johnson.You are a virus,a cancer that infects this forum.
Just jog ,on you poor benighted idiot!

Screw you bigoted and cankerous old man You plague the forum with your regratured vomit and closed threads. I have some sympathetic care for the elderly. Remember to keep your hand high while you still can.

[Willow The Wisp]

I never saw Greb fight either, but I think he would have beaten Johnson from 1916 and beyond. Tell us who you like in the fantasy match up.

Unlike yourself, I understand how to interpret ring results with dates and factor in a fighter working condition in the given time.

Getting back to McCarty he did better vs. Kaufman than Johnson! He likey did better vs. Moran too. And Flynn. Johnson fought these 2nd raters for title shots.

Doc. He knows certainly "how to interpret ring results with dates, and factor in a fighter's working condition in the given time". Please don't ruin discussion with antagonist quips toward other superb posters. Door swings both ways, of course; we already know.

I commend the very good point about being nearly as well able to assess the quality of a past boxer using inference, extrapolation and literacy; as one uses in fritering away their ******** budget today, through the use of interpreting motion pictures. It's a dynamic that has amused me for decades.
"No film, so we can't know for sure". So who wins Usyk - Dubois II? Take a week and study theirs films. "Oopsy Daisy".

I must, of course, challenge the description of Kaufman, Moran and Flynn as 2nd raters. All three were among the best of their time, though never quite champion, they were the equivalent of, say, Parker, Dubois and Joshua today, and; they were the best the world could serve up, generations before modern conditions like excess weight, elevated BMI, and endocrine-disrupting chemicals found in plastics, pesticides, and other products shot men's testosterone levels to hell.

[QueensburyRules]

Doc. He knows certainly "how to interpret ring results with dates, and factor in a fighter's working condition in the given time". Please don't ruin discussion with antagonist quips toward other superb posters. Door swings both ways, of course; we already know.

I commend the very good point about being nearly as well able to assess the quality of a past boxer using inference, extrapolation and literacy; as one uses in fritering away their ******** budget today, through the use of interpreting motion pictures. It's a dynamic that has amused me for decades.
"No film, so we can't know for sure". So who wins Usyk - Dubois II? Take a week and study theirs films. "Oopsy Daisy".

I must, of course, challenge the description of Kaufman, Moran and Flynn as 2nd raters. All three were among the best of their time, though never quite champion, they were the equivalent of, say, Parker, Dubois and Joshua today, and; they were the best the world could serve up, generations before modern conditions like excess weight, elevated BMI, and endocrine-disrupting chemicals found in plastics, pesticides, and other products shot men's testosterone levels to hell.

- - Their time was primitive as was the division then absent Jeff who would be a full Heavy today.

JJohnson had inferior results against the same Jeff opponents would be the natural tier 2 contender with no fan base such that noone would want to fight him for peanuts...NOONE!!!

[Dr Z]

I must, of course, challenge the description of Kaufman, Moran and Flynn as 2nd raters. All three were among the best of their time, though never quite champion, they were the equivalent of, say, Parker, Dubois and Joshua today, and; they were the best the world could serve up, generations before modern conditions like excess weight, elevated BMI, and endocrine-disrupting chemicals found in plastics, pesticides, and other products shot men's testosterone levels to hell.

They were average to good " white hope" , not very good or great ones.

Sam Langford , Gunboat Smith, Luther McCarty, Joe Jeannette, Sam Mcvey , and a few others were better than Kaufman, Moran, and Flynn.

No sir, Kaufman, Moran, and Flynn were not among the best of their time.

[Willow The Wisp]

They were average to good " white hope" , not very good or great ones.

Sam Langford , Gunboat Smith, Luther McCarty, Joe Jeannette, Sam Mcvey , and a few others were better than Kaufman, Moran, and Flynn.

No sir, Kaufman, Moran, and Flynn were not among the best of their time.

Dr. Z You really must accept that you are the student here, when you discuss boxing history with me. Now of course, you're eager for a sop****ric retort of some kind and most welcome to it; but your respectable body of boxing knowledge would be greatly enhanced if you'd check your ego at the door and listen up.

Lol.....nah....I can't do it. I'm just kidding. You can think whatever you want. I'm just no good at this argument stuff. Fact is, I'm just not especially interested in whatever ideas that other people harbor. During my professional career, I always held onto an administrative assistant who was highly capable of keeping people on the other side of my door, whose interaction did not enhance me or my firm. Seemed efficient, and it worked out well.

It's all good, and I enjoy your posting very much.
Within the 2nd decade of the 20th century, I know that you could list three-dozen heavyweights who were better and more accomplished than Frank Moran, Fireman Jim Flynn and Al Kaufman. In fact, I'm counting on it.

[Willie Pep 229]

I don't see any conflict between your opinions.

"Best of their time." I would think that for any era you would want to name at least a top 20.

So Moran, Flynn, Kaufman, Etc. They're on the list. They were contenders. Good enough to be part of the "best of an era."

We're too critical.

[Willow The Wisp]

I don't see any conflict between your opinions.

"Best of their time." I would think that for any era you would want to name at least a top 20.

So Moran, Flynn, Kaufman, Etc. They're on the list. They were contenders. Good enough to be part of the "best of an era."

We're too critical.

It's all lucid there Willie.