Dempsey V Marciano's Challengers?

[JAB5239]

Dempsey owed Rickard a 1920 fight after Willard.

Rickard had a relationship with Brennan who was a respected name in 1920.

Brennan's losses to Greb in 1919 were three NWS and a PTS (often based on Pittsburgh newspaper calls.)

Brennan was on a ten fight winning streak in 1920 with seven KOs.

On the other hand, Rickard would not promote a Greb fight until Tunney in 1923 and that was only because Tunney had a relationship with Rickard, not Greb.

Even Greb's appearance on the Miske undercard and the whole PR nonsense that Greb beat up Dempsey in training, that goes with it, (a very old and still commonly used promotional tactic) was promoted by Floyd Fitzsimmons not Tex Rickard.

Greb was not big outside of Pittsburgh in 1920 and was building his brand by being in Denpsey's training camp and on Dempsey's undercard.

Greb was not on Rickard's radar. You have too much of this sports league fairness thing going, based on win-lose records, that were unoticed.

In fact no one was even complining these stats across State lines, and if someone did, it still would likely have not have mattered. It wasn't the way the game was promoted.

Greb's best publicity to that date was the sparing session story. Doesn't that suggest anything to you?

Greb was so 'not yet popular' in 1920'm that he brought his own 'regular opponent' Chuck Wiggins for his undercard opponent, in what was no more than a mere six round NWS fight.

Greb wasn't even worth promoting as a ten round preliminary fight. His six rounder against Wiggins was barely a step above an exhibition.

Rickard didn't have a relationship Greb, and until he beat Tunney had no interest in him.

In 1920 Greb was not a viable candidate and Rickard was not, at that time, paying him any mind.

The Brennan fight was the fight Dempsey owed Rickard and Brennan was Rickard's call.

Jab, you always get caught up in this 'fairness thing,' were you think that in 1920s America there was a national media, or a governing body that was promoting fairness.

Your view is hindsight. Driven by Greb's legendary status today. In 1920 that didn't exist. The best newspaper ink Greb could get in New York, in 1920, was being Dempsey's sparing partner and in a six rounder.

You need to put the whole picture together and in perspective.

There wasn't enough money to back a 1922 fight, there definitely was no interest in Greb-Dempsey in 1920. Certainly not in Tex Rickard's eyes.

First off I'd like to say this is a well thought out and sensible post. I just can't see how Greb want a big enough name when he was beating the men Dempsey fought before Jack did. Maybe my view is hindsight, and maybe I do get caught up in the "fairness" thing. But for the life of me I'll never understand it.

[Willie Pep 229]

First off I'd like to say this is a well thought out and sensible post. I just can't see how Greb want a big enough name when he was beating the men Dempsey fought before Jack did. Maybe my view is hindsight, and maybe I do get caught up in the "fairness" thing. But for the life of me I'll never understand it.

Probably the most unfair sport there is.

It is easy to get angry at prize fighting.

They give so much in body and soul only to be denied or cheated by monied interests.

[Bronson66]

Well let's examine who they fought in title defense first. For the purpose of the tread only wins will be discussed, but the ages, activity levels and performances of the winner are key.


First up JD opponets..

Title defense wins over.

1. Miske who was dying of bright's disease. It was really a no decision fight. " During the fight, I began to feel that Billy wasn't giving me as tough a battle as I had expected. He did not seem like his old self.'" - Jack Dempsey. So he beat a dying man.

2. Brennan. Brennan was a good challager in fine working condition, but he had Dempsey hurt and JD had to come back to win in 12. There is some controversy as Brennan may have beaten the count. This one is one film to see.

3. Carpentier, The 172 pound challenger injured his hand and quickly faded Ko'd in four, but the Frenchman was doing well pre-injury. On film to see.

4. Gibbons. Shelby’s residents walked away disappointed and angry. Dempsey lacked his usual sharpness and power while Gibbons, who managed to cut Dempsey’s eye in round two, slapped on repeated clinches and generally tried to neutralize the champion.

After 15 nondescript rounds, referee Jim Dougherty – who was handpicked by Kearns – raised Dempsey’s hand with no argument from Gibbons. Because Kearns had dibs on the first $300,000 of income – and because only $72,000 of the third installment was paid to Team Dempsey – Gibbons ended up fighting for free. A lackluster affair and one that was poorly filmed by the statadard of the time.


5. Fripo. Demsey was down twice and hurt. Luckily he had the defensively inpet Fripo

After the fight Dempsey said "He is game and the hardest puncher I ever faced. It was the first time I was knocked down since I became champion and I'll never forget it. I saw eight million stars when I got that punch on the chin that knocked me out of the ring. ... I didn't even know he had knocked me out of the ring until I came to on my stool between rounds. I thought I had been knocked out."

And there is controversy of course as there is in many if Dempey fights.

It was a violation of the Rules of Boxing for the newspapermen to push Dempsey back into the ring. The rules state: "If a boxer is knocked out of the ring, he gets a count of 20 to get back in and on his feet. He cannot be assisted." Some people question to this day whether Dempsey would have been able to “beat the count” if not for this push back into the ring. In addition, the film is edited and JD may have been out of the ring for more than 20 seconds. And Dempsey did not obeythe rules.

Dempsey stood directly over Fripo in violation of the rules while Referee Gallagher began the count. Firpo attempted to rise and Dempsey lunged right at him, the blow grazing Firpo’s head just as he was getting off the canvas. The referee overlooked this unintentional violation of the rules.

At the very least Fripo deserved a re-match. That did not happen. Long Island City promoter Simon Flaherty offered Dempsey a huge purse to defend the title against African-American contender Harry Wills at the event. That did not happen either.

That is a wrap on Dempsey's successful title defenses.
He beat a dying man, beat the shimpy Carpentier who injured his hand, won a hard fought battle vs. Brennan and had to come back to stop him, won a lackluster fight over Gibbons, and beat Fripo with fouls and aid from the crowd.

His best opponents in Wills and Greb were avoided. Somehow I think Marciano's title opponets were a bit better.



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JACK DEMPSEY -vs- LUIS ANGEL FIRPO - HD Documentary - Rare Footage

[QueensburyRules]

There was no coast to coast rioting. There was White on Black violence, mostly in the South and West.

Whites tried to shut down the film presentations and silence the celebration.

"Riots" was a White euphemism; same BS, as T-rump trying to claim there is violence on both sides.

Nah! Those were not riots. You read about the violence in detail and what you find is Whites attacking Blacks and movie theaters being set on fire. All one side.

The Blacks just wanted to dance in the street. Whites weren't having it.

- - I relayed the time Louis got beat by Schmeling by an elderly uncle who was a 10 yr old newspaper boy delivering on the black ******** of Austin with no problems until the night of that fight.

Had the boy been mature, they'd have beat him up. But since he was a boy servicing their community, they let him go.

I've always read coast to coast rioting, but the news biz was, is, and forever shall be dubious much of the time with rare exception.

[Dr Z]

First off I'd like to say this is a well thought out and sensible post. I just can't see how Greb want a big enough name when he was beating the men Dempsey fought before Jack did. Maybe my view is hindsight, and maybe I do get caught up in the "fairness" thing. But for the life of me I'll never understand it.

He ducked Wills along with Greb. Greb was a big name in boxing. As was Wills.