Pacquiao - Measured against all time.

[JAB5239]

Plenty of circumstantial evidence that JMM was a juicer.

Plenty of circumstantial evidence with a lot of fighters. Doesn't mean they all need to be degraded with no hard proof.

[BattlingNelson]

Plenty of circumstantial evidence with a lot of fighters. Doesn't mean they all need to be degraded with no hard proof.

Idk. There was a lot of debate about JMM and his use of Memo Heredia at the time. Also the changes in his physical appearance.

On the other hand, I'm not clearing Pac (or anyone else for that mater), but the smoke from JMM stank.

[QueensburyRules]

Plenty of circumstantial evidence with a lot of fighters. Doesn't mean they all need to be degraded with no hard proof.

- - Noone but U ever implied all fighters have been degraded...NOONE!!!

[JAB5239]

Idk. There was a lot of debate about JMM and his use of Memo Heredia at the time. Also the changes in his physical appearance.

On the other hand, I'm not clearing Pac (or anyone else for that mater), but the smoke from JMM stank.

Like I said, you can question a boatload of fighters over the last 30 years. Did he juice? I have no idea. There is no proof, only speculation. There are supplements to beef you up if you diet and train correctly. I don't know what he took and neither does anyone else. Therefore I don't think it's right to degrade him. There were times Elad looked absolutely jacked and vascular, but there is no proof of cheating. It can be done with many fightets.

[JAB5239]

- - Noone but U ever implied all fighters have been degraded...NOONE!!!

You're right. You never degraded all fighters. Just fighters you have a personal dislike for. You do it on the daily.

[ELPacman]

It's interesting. I would watch mega matches as a kid when my father would put them on just because of the hype surrounding them. I mostly recall Hopkins-Tito and Tyson-Lewis. He had a bunch of Tyson fights on even earlier, like late 80s, early 90s when I was nearly too young to recall them. I just remember my parents inviting a neighbor to come over to watch cause there was this amazing guy that had to be watched whenever he fought.

I recall during Tyson-Lewis seeing Pacquiao and at the time with Pacquiao having a stash when he faced Jorge Julio, I thought he was an old man. I also assumed because he was Asian, he automatically was going to be an awesome fighter. Again, being young, naive and not having a spit of knowledge of the sport. Pacquiao blasted Julio in 2rds and I thought, damn, I knew these Asians were incredible fighters! They dominate anything they do (or so I thought at that time being a young kid). Tyson-Lewis fight was over and I was back to not caring about the sport.

Fast forward a year later when Pacquiao was going to take on Barrera. I have no idea why I decided to sit down and watch it with my dad because again, I had zero interesting in boxing overall (my father would catch every single bout on every channel. Record ones he couldn't watch live with VHS player, hardcore was an understatement). So I sat there and when Pacquiao came out, I was like, hey wasn't that the Asian fighter I saw a year ago blitz that other dude? This could be a fun watch. The performance he put on, in conjunction with the commentary from HBO probably transcended that fight in my mind into something never seen before having been done. I'm not sure, but I was immediately hooked. I deep dived into the sport and caught lots of other bouts in like 240p on then Youtube. Anything I could watch to keep learning about other fighters and following Pacquiao's every step.

In the end of it all, and all the excitement Pacquiao brought through his career as a fan, I kind of find it ironic that the 1 guy that got me hooked into the sport ends up going on this legendary run that I followed for many many years. It could have been anyone, but Pacquiao was the guy that got me hooked and look what he became. I'll never follow another sports figure through the ups and downs as I did Pacquiao for the rest of my life, but man am I so happy I got to be alive and witness it every step of the way.

[QueensburyRules]

Ok well you've just made an excuse for the Mayweather one which is the exact thing you accused me of doing to Thurman so I'm not sure how you reconcile that one.

Are you actually now going to argue that beating that version Keith Thurman is better than beating that version of Canelo? Surely you are not.

But ok if you want more of that very specific example then you've got a 44 year old George Foreman beating undefeated champion Micheal Moorer who was 27 years old.

If you want examples of older fighters beating younger fighters with a huge age gap then there are ample.



Well, that's the whole point that seems to be elluding you.

Yes, Cloud is terrible, no where near as good as Thurman. But everything you can say about Thurman, you can say about Cloud.

Undefeated, reigning champion, in the Top 5 of the division, high KO % (higher than Thurman), and also a much bigger age gap between the two.

But yet, if you use CONTEXT, and actually look at it in depth, it's a solid win at best for Hopkins. Much like Pacquaio's win over Thurman.

Thus, the point.

- - l'l floydy copped a Bayless enhanced points victory over a Catchweight drained Canelo who was literally a dangerous shade of blue on the scales with a rehydration clause limiting Canelo to 165lbs instead of his normal ring weight of 175, hardly a "beating."

Moreover, l'i floydy and he crack daddy ducked the highly lucrative record setting rematch at a proper 154 limit, or at 155lbs that Canelo offered him for his WBC middleweight title.

[JAB5239]

- - l'l floydy copped a Bayless enhanced points victory over a Catchweight drained Canelo who was literally a dangerous shade of blue on the scales with a rehydration clause limiting Canelo to 165lbs instead of his normal ring weight of 175, hardly a "beating."

Moreover, l'i floydy and he crack daddy ducked the highly lucrative record setting rematch at a proper 154 limit, or at 155lbs that Canelo offered him for his WBC middleweight title.

"A dangerous shade of blue"! Lmao.....ok!!

[IronDanHamza]

- - l'l floydy copped a Bayless enhanced points victory over a Catchweight drained Canelo who was literally a dangerous shade of blue on the scales with a rehydration clause limiting Canelo to 165lbs instead of his normal ring weight of 175, hardly a "beating."

Moreover, l'i floydy and he crack daddy ducked the highly lucrative record setting rematch at a proper 154 limit, or at 155lbs that Canelo offered him for his WBC middleweight title.

There was no rehydration clause for that fight you senile cunt.

Do everyone a favour and kill yourself.

[IronDanHamza]

Plenty of circumstantial evidence with a lot of fighters. Doesn't mean they all need to be degraded with no hard proof.

It’s either one or the other.

We can assume Marquez was on something, I assume he was too but that’s all it would be, an assumption.

Same for Pacquaio, Mayweather, almost any top athlete.