Top 10 Most OVERRATED Fighters

[TheGreatA]

If Leonard can sell good crowds against opponents like Larry Bonds, Bruce Finch and Ayub Kalule, he should have no problem against Pryor.

And I'm guessing he had more credibility for beating better opponents than any of the fighters listed above did.

In truth Kalule had a better record than Pryor did before Pryor fought Arguello.

Also it's not like Leonard didn't fight Benitez, Duran, Hearns, all-time great fighters. Yet he ducked a 140 lber whose best win was over an ancient Cervantes.

He hadn't fought in the welterweight division, at the time, but I don't doubt that he a threat to them.

He was the best in his division. Besides that, he beat Hearns in the amateurs, came off a knockout victory over an all-time great JWW in Cervantes, and was repeatedly calling out Leonard for a fight. Yet, he couldn't get a good fight.

When Hearns was a 130 lb matchstick with no punch.

Cervantes was an all-time great perhaps 5 years ago. He was washed up and no longer a factor in boxing at the time Pryor beat him.

[Stoppage]

You can assume what you want but I was wondering whether you had any proof other than the infamous HBO Legendary Nights episode to back up your claim. I've researched this somewhat and come to the conclusion that no ducking was going on. All facts seem to point out that way.

Like I said before, it's not proof and I know that. I just assume one way and you assume the other. And that's how it's gonna be.

He said he didn't expect fights against Hearns and Leonard because they were "picking up weight", as in they were bigger. Pryor fought at 135-140 and never had a fight at 147 until fighting Bobby Joe Young in 1987, a fight he lost.

Picking up weight means you're gaining weight. If you're gaining weight, you're moving up to another weight class. Why would a natural LW/JWW want to move up to LM? He'd more than likely lose, big time.

[Stoppage]

In truth Kalule had a better record than Pryor did before Pryor fought Arguello.

Cervantes was an all-time great perhaps 5 years ago. He was washed up and no longer a factor in boxing at the time Pryor beat him.

The names are what's important. Kalule fought no one of notice in America. In fact, all of his fights prior to Leonard were not in America. And all the money is in America.

Cervantes was at least known in America and he was highly regarded.

Also it's not like Leonard didn't fight Benitez, Duran, Hearns, all-time great fighters. Yet he ducked a 140 lber whose best win was over an ancient Cervantes.

I give him 100% credit for those wins but I still feel he ducked Pryor.

[TheGreatA]

Like I said before, it's not proof and I know that. I just assume one way and you assume the other. And that's how it's gonna be.

I just don't think you've put too much thought or effort into this.

I've been reading about this for a long time and the timeline just doesn't match. Pryor had his best victory against Arguello after Leonard was already retired. No newspapers at the time mention anything about Leonard "avoiding" Pryor, in fact the talk seems to be about Pryor's own management problems.

Picking up weight means you're gaining weight. If you're gaining weight, you're moving up to another weight class. Why would a natural LW/JWW want to move up to LM? He'd more than likely lose, big time.

Pryor didn't mean they were moving up in weight. He meant that Leonard and Hearns were now bigger than him and it would be unlikely that he would fight them, since he was not a natural welterweight like they were. He was a 140 lber who held a piece of the title. Never stepped up to the WW division until 1987 as I said.

Pryor calling out Leonard is the equal of Timothy Bradley calling out Floyd Mayweather. Would you say Mayweather is ducking him?

The names are what's important. Kalule fought no one of notice in America. In fact, all of his fights prior to Leonard were not in America. And all the money is in America.

Cervantes was at least known in America and he was highly regarded.

Cervantes wasn't well-known in America. Leonard took on Kalule, an accomplished 154 lb champion, as a tune-up to his superfight against Thomas Hearns.

To be completely honest it seems like Pryor's fans try to point out that their man was ducked by everyone to defend against the fact that his record is not all that great outside of Alexis Arguello. In reality he screwed up a lot himself with drug abuse, inactivity and management problems.

[Stoppage]

I just don't think you've put too much thought or effort into this.

I've been reading about this for a long time and the timeline just doesn't match. Pryor had his best victory against Arguello after Leonard was already retired. No newspapers at the time mention anything about Leonard "avoiding" Pryor, in fact the talk seems to be about Pryor's own management problems.

Leonard is and always will be the people's champion and I doubt they'd write bad about him. His critics' admiration is the equivalent of Oscar de la Hoya's during the 1990's.

Also, like we keep telling each other, there is no proof of ducking. I feel he ducked Leonard while you feel he didn't. You don't see too many sports writers writing an article about how they feel.

Pryor didn't mean they were moving up in weight. He meant that Leonard and Hearns were now bigger than him and it would be unlikely that he would fight them, since he was not a natural welterweight like they were. He was a 140 lber who held a piece of the title. Never stepped up to the WW division until 1987 as I said.

I doubt that, since Leonard and Hearns never fought below welterweight in their entire careers, as a professional. So 'moving up in weight' means something else. And I think that something else is 'moving up to another division'.

Pryor calling out Leonard is the equal of Timothy Bradley calling out Floyd Mayweather. Would you say Mayweather is ducking him?

The circumstances are different. Pryor was rated as the best in his division and he beat someone that was highly regarded.

But knowing Mayweather, lately, I wouldn't doubt it (that's just a joke).

Cervantes wasn't well-known in America. Leonard took on Kalule, an accomplished 154 lb champion, as a tune-up to his superfight against Thomas Hearns.

He already had a tune-up fight against Larry Bonds (who was a southpaw). Don't know why he didn't fight Hearns after that one. But we really shouldn't bring this in since arguments can go either way.

And you have to admit that Cervantes was more well-known than Kalule in America.

To be completely honest it seems like Pryor's fans try to point out that their man was ducked by everyone to defend against the fact that his record is not all that great outside of Alexis Arguello. In reality he screwed up a lot himself with drug abuse and management problems.

I actually like Leonard more than Pryor.

I agree that he screwed up his career, badly. The good old 'what could have been' can apply to Pryor.

[blacklodge]

Indeed he didn't, he took on better fighters than that. Nunn is the only real name he didn't fight but he did fight Toney who beat Nunn. I'm afraid Hearns, Benn and Eubank wanted nothing to do with him. Barkley and Olajide would have been no contest.

If he split fights with Toney and Kalambay then he hardly lost to every elite fighter he ever faced, did he?

I don't think I can convince you about McCallum because you have a different idea of what a fighter should do in order to pursue greatness. I don't think sitting on your title and dominating a rather weak group of boxers is it. And it's not like Norris was as dominant as Hopkins was during his reign although he did fight better opponents, in my opinion.

It's not that I have a different idea of greatness, but I do also value sitting champions. Moving up and fighting only the best is also pursuant of greatnesss, maybe even more, I just don't think McCallum did it to the extent that he is almost always credited for by the boxing community. There are so many determining factors in boxing, mainly $$, that it's too wildly speculative to say who ducked who. Eubank is probably another story, but I don't think Benn or Hearns ducked anyone, including McCallum. I also don't see a McCallum-Barkley fight in '88-'89-'90 as a blowout. And the fact remains that McCallum did lose to Kalambay and Toney. With Toney, I realize the controversey, but not unlike SRR-Joey Maxim, I don't give retroactive credit for what should have happened. Of course, it shouldn't hurt McCallum historically as much as an outright draw and loss, but it shouldn't help him either. Then you have the second Kalambay fight, years later (3?)and at a higher weight. It's just not the same. It's not that I have no love for The Body Snatcher, but seeing him on top 30, 40 all time P4P lists just doesn't make sense to me.
Thanks for the peaceful discussion, by the way.

[TheGreatA]

It's not that I have a different idea of greatness, but I do also value sitting champions. Moving up and fighting only the best is also pursuant of greatnesss, maybe even more, I just don't think McCallum did it to the extent that he is almost always credited for by the boxing community. There are so many determining factors in boxing, mainly $$, that it's too wildly speculative to say who ducked who. Eubank is probably another story, but I don't think Benn or Hearns ducked anyone, including McCallum. I also don't see a McCallum-Barkley fight in '88-'89-'90 as a blowout. And the fact remains that McCallum did lose to Kalambay and Toney. With Toney, I realize the controversey, but not unlike SRR-Joey Maxim, I don't give retroactive credit for what should have happened. Of course, it shouldn't hurt McCallum historically as much as an outright draw and loss, but it shouldn't help him either. Then you have the second Kalambay fight, years later (3?)and at a higher weight. It's just not the same. It's not that I have no love for The Body Snatcher, but seeing him on top 30, 40 all time P4P lists just doesn't make sense to me.
Thanks for the peaceful discussion, by the way.

Hearns might not have ducked anybody but Steward did not want McCallum to fight him. He signed a Duran-Hearns fight behind McCallum's back when McCallum was Duran's mandatory. Steward insists that Duran would have dropped the title and fought Hearns anyway but McCallum never forgave him that.

Benn was not to duck anyone, and he may not have ducked McCallum, but after McCallum dispatched Watson, what was then viewed as an old man was no longer an easy match-up for anybody in the middleweight division. Credit to Toney for taking him on.

I can't see Barkley being too competitive with McCallum. I view that as an ideal match-up for Mike who feasted on slower, crude brawlers but often struggled with quicker boxer types.

The Kalambay rematch was at the same weight actually, and Kalambay put up a very good effort but it was not quite enough in my opinion.

By the way I don't agree that he is top 30-40 either. Top 100 is another matter but even then, there have been hundreds of great fighters, many that people probably don't even know of.

[JB16]

I to feel that the HBO Legendary night series, created a blown out of proportion myth regrading Leonard ducking Pryor. To create drama, thus making the episodes more interesting so to speak.

Like some have previously said, by the time Pryor got his biggest win defeating Arguello, Leonard was already in retirement.

In 1981 when Leonard was the best Welterweight in the world and had just beaten top 154 fighter Ayub Kalule, Pyor's only real win of true significane was a faded Antonio Cervantes, and the 140lb Pryor only the previous year had been a top contender in the 135lb division.

Both fighters had some verbal banter and a rivalry, dating back to there amature days.

Here's a quote from Pryor's wife, Frankie Pryor.

''The fight between Ray and Aaron was one many people wanted to see.
Aaron and Ray have been friends since they were in the early teens and boxed on the same USA Boxing team together. Aaron used to go to Palmer Park, MD and stay with Ray and his family for months at a time when they were working through the amateur ranks. In fact, Ray’s mom advised both of them to not turn pro as she didn’t think they would be able to make a living in boxing! We still see Sugar Ray a couple times a year and I always enjoy hearing their stories about the “good old days”. But I think those “good old days” stopped short any match-up as pros because they were both so knowledgeable of each other’s styles from sparring together and being on the same boxing team. That is the one fighter Aaron does not flat out say he would have beaten but he always says he would have been one great fight no matter who won''

Both Ray and Aaron called out each other on different occasions. But lets not forget as someone already has said, Pryor in 1981 said he doesn't expect to fight either Hearns or Leonard because they are "picking up weight''

But to say Ray ran scared of Pryor and always ducked him are blowing things totally out of proportion as the facts prove, and that is mainly due to HBO.

If Leonard was willing to step up to the plate and fight, Hearns, Benitez, and Duran. I don't think he would of avoided Pryor.

Here's another quote from Leonard rearding a Pryor bout
''Aaron Pryor wants to get into the ring with me. He wants to be able to retire, and he will. For health reasons''

[TheGreatA]

Leonard is and always will be the people's champion and I doubt they'd write bad about him. His critics' admiration is the equivalent of Oscar de la Hoya's during the 1990's.

Leonard was accused of ducking Thomas Hearns for example, because Hearns was widely considered the number 1 challenger and to many the number 1 in the division over Leonard.

Pryor on the other hand was a light welterweight who as I've said many times, did not have any notable victories aside from one over Antonio Cervantes.

Also, like we keep telling each other, there is no proof of ducking. I feel he ducked Leonard while you feel he didn't. You don't see too many sports writers writing an article about how they feel.

I don't really "feel" he didn't. To me it's fairly certain that he didn't because there simply wasn't a window of opportunity for the match to ever happen.

I doubt that, since Leonard and Hearns never fought below welterweight in their entire careers, as a professional. So 'moving up in weight' means something else. And I think that something else is 'moving up to another division'.

He was probably thinking back about the times when Hearns and Leonard fought in the same divisions as him in the amateurs. Pryor stayed as a 135-140 pounder, while Hearns and Leonard got bigger and fought mainly at 147.

Thus saying that they were "picking up weight" and that it is unlikely he will fight either. He was not a natural welterweight and neither Hearns or Leonard were going to fight at 140.

The circumstances are different. Pryor was rated as the best in his division and he beat someone that was highly regarded.

But knowing Mayweather, lately, I wouldn't doubt it (that's just a joke).

I'm not sure if Cervantes at the time was any more highly regarded than Witter and Holt. I'm not saying that either of those two were on Cervantes's level at all but Cervantes really was getting up there in age, his performances had gotten worse and worse and it was basically a matter of time when he was going to lose his belt to somebody.

He already had a tune-up fight against Larry Bonds (who was a southpaw). Don't know why he didn't fight Hearns after that one. But we really shouldn't bring this in since arguments can go either way.

The promoters had staged a double-header with Leonard and Hearns both in main events, Leonard fighting Kalule, Hearns fighting an unknown Pablo Baez. Both won their fights in impressive fashion which further hyped up their eventual showdown.

And you have to admit that Cervantes was more well-known than Kalule in America.

Perhaps more so but even during the pre-fight analysis for the Pryor vs Cervantes fight it is mentioned that despite all his achievements, Cervantes is little known by the US fans.

[Princemanspopa]

Actually, I was watching their fights before I saw the Legendary Nights episode and thought to myself: why didn't they fight? Then it hit me.


Also, your fascination with relating Legendary Nights episodes in almost every one of your posts shows your limited ability to reason out things.

Bull****! Your accusation and it's source is so damn obvious.These accusations of Leonard ducking Pryor didn't start until that episode came out,you watched that episode,saw Aaron Pryor making a feeble attempt at calling out Ray Leonard and put 1+1 together and came up with 3

If Leonard can sell good crowds against opponents like Larry Bonds, Bruce Finch and Ayub Kalule, he should have no problem against Pryor.

Good thinking idiot.You just named Bruce Finch and Larry Bonds,both of whom happened to actually be welterweights and Kalule who happened to be a junior middleweight champion(just an oppurtunity to pick up another belt)

He hadn't fought in the welterweight division, at the time, but I don't doubt that he a threat to them.

Who cares what you think,the fact of that matter is that,Pryor never had the balls to step up to 147 and perhaps you could answer why he didn't?

If anything there is a much greater argument to suggest that Aaron Pryor ducked Ray Leonard here,as he was given an offer and that he wasn't willing to step out of his own division despite making some moise about fighting bigger men.

He was the best in his division. Besides that, he beat Hearns in the amateurs, came off a knockout victory over an all-time great JWW in Cervantes, and was repeatedly calling out Leonard for a fight. Yet, he couldn't get a good fight.

Aarony Pryor was the best JWW at that time,what a great accomplishment that was,especially when the division was bursting with talent......


Aaaron Pryor as a young man beat a skinny,pillow punching boy in Thomas Hearns in the amatuers,which doesn't mean **** in the professional rankings,the fact that you bring this up proves how shallow your argument is.