Which boxer pioneered boxing techniques as we know them today

[Ivich]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you've added nothing between my last post and this one. Fairly confident everything you have to say is covered in my last so ... TF is the point of this post?

You already have the source. You should read it. I realize you love to spend all day wanking over arguments. you should spend more time reading the material you cite and the material cited to you.

My time is better served calling you a waste of time. It is at least intellectually honest.

Nope, non, no,niet ,nein.
I asked you for verified sources that Ryan invented the crouch and Lastarza invented the rope a dope.

You provided jack **** just a lot of insults that you would not be saying if you were standing in front of me.
YOU SIR ARE A GUTLESS FRAUD.THAT IS AN INTELLECTUALLY HONEST FACT.

[billeau2]

The will we have to understand something often enough leads us to try to find a point of origination. This can be difficult. Sometimes it does bare fruit, but often enough, it puts us in a strange situation.

One of my favorite historian/thinkers is/was the great Michael Foucault. His research and understanding carried with it an existential premise that knowledge is essentially a mutation. It is often accidental and comes from circumstances with no basis in logic. What becomes historically relevant is how these mutations (my understanding) develop and improve our lot. So for example, an artist creates painting using a different angle, perspective, which leads into a new vocabulary for painting. Or, Freud because he was willing to talk to women, becomes a progenitor of Psychoanalysis.... Freud did not decide "I will talk to women to develop a new understanding of our psyche" and that is the point.

For boxing when we attempt to assign a point of origination to a technique, an approach, it becomes whimsical at times. For example, the Jab... a punch that became the way to feed into other punches, create distance... and also, a punch that taught the physiology of applying rotating force, small circular force, to a punch... But where did it come from? Was it a product of Kid McCoys CorkScrew punch? Johnsons, need to catch opponents off a parrying movement? a way to give more utility to a classic straight lead? Did Tunney consumate the punch when he showed how to control a puncher using the distance created using a jab?

For all the possibilities just mentioned, I assure you many more exist... As far as the crouch, It would be even more difficult to come to a single point of origination. Meaning: is there ever a single point of origination? or, as people start to work with a new approach does it gradually find a way to enter the mainstream epistemology that informs an approach? Not in one purposeful leap, but in many ways as things evolve and change?

[Ivich]

The will we have to understand something often enough leads us to try to find a point of origination. This can be difficult. Sometimes it does bare fruit, but often enough, it puts us in a strange situation.

One of my favorite historian/thinkers is/was the great Michael Foucault. His research and understanding carried with it an existential premise that knowledge is essentially a mutation. It is often accidental and comes from circumstances with no basis in logic. What becomes historically relevant is how these mutations (my understanding) develop and improve our lot. So for example, an artist creates painting using a different angle, perspective, which leads into a new vocabulary for painting. Or, Freud because he was willing to talk to women, becomes a progenitor of Psychoanalysis.... Freud did not decide "I will talk to women to develop a new understanding of our psyche" and that is the point.

For boxing when we attempt to assign a point of origination to a technique, an approach, it becomes whimsical at times. For example, the Jab... a punch that became the way to feed into other punches, create distance... and also, a punch that taught the physiology of applying rotating force, small circular force, to a punch... But where did it come from? Was it a product of Kid McCoys CorkScrew punch? Johnsons, need to catch opponents off a parrying movement? a way to give more utility to a classic straight lead? Did Tunney consumate the punch when he showed how to control a puncher using the distance created using a jab?

For all the possibilities just mentioned, I assure you many more exist... As far as the crouch, It would be even more difficult to come to a single point of origination. Meaning: is there ever a single point of origination? or, as people start to work with a new approach does it gradually find a way to enter the mainstream epistemology that informs an approach? Not in one purposeful leap, but in many ways as things evolve and change?

Then why state categorically that Ryan invented the crouch?

Ryan himself did not fight out of a crouch, he just coached Jeffries to use it.

Why state Lastarza invented the rope a dope, what evidence is there that this is correct?

In which films or books is this stated?

It's just an example of somebody making a statement without any proof whatsoever to back it up,the only motive for which is to try and appear more learned than he is.

I could say for example that Mysterious Billy Smith invented the uppercut ,but without a shred of evidence nobody is going to believe me and rightly so!

What has happened here is ego,hubris, and plain old vanity has gotten the better of someone's commonsense and led them

into a cul de sac,from which they cannot extricate themself. Too conceited to admit they know no more than the rest of us

on these two points,his only recourse is mock indignation at being asked to prove them!

It's rather sad if you think about it.

[billeau2]

Then why state categorically that Ryan invented the crouch?
Ryan himself did not fight out of a crouch, he just coached Jeffries to use it.

Why state Lastarza invented the rope a dope, what evidence is there that this is correct? In which films or books is this stated?
It's just an example of somebody making a statement without any proof whatsoever to back it up,the only motive for which is too try and appear more learned than he is.
I could say for example that Mysterious Billy Smith invented the uppercut ,but without a shred of evidence nobody is going to believe me and rightly so!

What has happened here is ego,hubris, and plain old vanity has gotten the better of someone's commonsense and led them into a cul de sac,from which they cannot extricate themselves,too conceited to admit they know no more than the rest of us on these two points,their only recourse is mock indignation at being asked to prove them!
It's rather sad if you think about it.

I do not think a crouch can be invented by anyone... It is a general movement. Regardless of how Ryan fought.

The rope a dope MIGHT be attributable to Ali... Unless another fighter did exactly what Ali did. I never really saw such a thing.

I can't speak for others in a specific way... But generally speaking? I like Popper's famous axiom: Something has to be falsifiable to have the property of "truth" (usually applied to a scientific conclusion). Often enough it is almost impossible to show how similar variations of a technique are NOT (falsify) the same. For example, how would I prove that a hook coming vertically is not an uppercut? Or that baiting a puncher by taking the ropes is NOT the rope a dope?

Well I am quite fond of both of you, my opinion for what it is worth, is that there is seldom "proof" of originating a technique unless one Heuristically asserts a specific criteria for what constitutes such proof. I mean it is not impossible... Something like the Bolo punch and even perhaps (under specific criteria) something like the rope a dope... In btheb spirit of full disclosure here? I disagree that la Starza invented the Rope a dope.

[Ivich]

I do not think a crouch can be invented by anyone... It is a general movement. Regardless of how Ryan fought.

The rope a dope MIGHT be attributable to Ali... Unless another fighter did exactly what Ali did. I never really saw such a thing.

I can't speak for others in a specific way... But generally speaking? I like Popper's famous axiom: Something has to be falsifiable to have the property of "truth" (usually applied to a scientific conclusion). Often enough it is almost impossible to show how similar variations of a technique are NOT (falsify) the same. For example, how would I prove that a hook coming vertically is not an uppercut? Or that baiting a puncher by taking the ropes is NOT the rope a dope?

Well I am quite fond of both of you, my opinion for what it is worth, is that there is seldom "proof" of originating a technique unless one Heuristically asserts a specific criteria for what constitutes such proof. I mean it is not impossible... Something like the Bolo punch and even perhaps (under specific criteria) something like the rope a dope... In btheb spirit of full disclosure here? I disagree that la Starza invented the Rope a dope.

"In 136 fights, Nicolino Locche only lost four. The late, great Ray Arcel once said Locche was the best defensive boxer he’d ever seen in action. Even if we left the story right there, that would be impressive, but there’s so much more to tell about this Argentine genius who is believed to have been a big inspiration for the ‘Rope-A-Dope’ strategy."

I don't hate or dislike Margarino.

I don't take him seriously enough to have any such deep emotional feelings about him ,as far as I'm concerned he is just another internet crack pot who has delusions about his own intelligence and importance in the long scheme of things.

[Ivich]

I give you a source, you judge the portion of that source that pertains to this conversation, I say something else you've missed and get asked for the same source over again.

You're just a ****** douche nozzle brah. It takes a 20 sec google to find someone else making the exact same claim. Guess we conspired together?

https://www.the13thround.com/phpBB2/...pic.php?t=5191

Read the ****in' books you've been cited brah. Catch up son. It's one thing to disagree, if you have the mother ****ing book I shouldn't need to cite the source should I? If this guy on this forum, literally the first hit on a search "Ali LaStarza", read my post he certainly wouldn't have taken issue with that claim. Maybe he too had never heard Ryan spoken of as a pioneer for the crouch. Maybe he'd never heard of Walcott being spoken of for the sucka. Should I source those for a lazy prick who can't google **** on their own as well? Even though I know the ****er has the source?

You skipped taking issue with McCoy and the Corkscrew ... I wonder why?

Do you really believe three thousand years passed before a man twisted his punch? Get all ****ish about it and no one's the pioneer of ****. However there are those we give credit to even though we kind of know better. Apparently McCoy's Corkscrew is well known and for some ****ing reason LaStarza's rope-a-dope is not. I'm the first person to claim it. It's not like, in a book, you already own. I know you own it because you claimed Roland didn't get his arms injured and I cited it for you.

Of those you know, where the **** are you sources? Why should I defend some of the list? Why am I being asked about Ryan and Roland but not Joe or Kid?

Probably because you're a cantankerous old **** who gave up reading for wanking over forum debates a long time ago

Quit asking for effort when you're a lazy prick. This isn't any harder than figuring out what the suzie-q is, I am not citing **** for your lazy ass.

Thank you for providing a source in which Lastarza's name is coupled with the expression rope a dope but, that does not state Lastarza invented the tactic.So its a miss,I'm afraid.

It is my understanding that McCoy is credited with originating the corkscrew punch,at least I have no alternative to offer.

I've never heard of Walcott being credited with the sucker punch which to my understanding is punching someone when they are not expecting it,as in not whilst in a boxing match.

www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › sucker punchSucker punch Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster


The meaning of SUCKER PUNCH is to punch (a person) suddenly without warning and often without apparent provocation.

Sorry,that's another fail.
No,I did not claim Lastarza did not get his arms injured,he did, but they were injured BEFORE the 2nd Marciano fight.

Roland had bone chips removed from both elbows after the fight,but they were already there BEFORE the fight. My source is a RING interview with Lastarza.You can either believe Lastarza or Wikipedia it's your choice

How are you coming along on that medication?

[billeau2]

"In 136 fights, Nicolino Locche only lost four. The late, great Ray Arcel once said Locche was the best defensive boxer he’d ever seen in action. Even if we left the story right there, that would be impressive, but there’s so much more to tell about this Argentine genius who is believed to have been a big inspiration for the ‘Rope-A-Dope’ strategy."

I don't hate or dislike Margarino.

I don't take him seriously enough to have any such deep emotional feelings about him ,as I'm concerned he is just another internet crack pot who has delusions about his own intelligence and importance in the long scheme of things.

Locche was incredible. Absolutely superhuman. I wouldn't call his talent rope-a-dope although yeah I know he hung against the ropes. Again could be splitting hairs lol but Locche used incredible upper body movements. As a matter of fact if you watch him he uses segmented shoulder to head movements and timing. A lot of which is counterintuitive but very effective.

Was that said you could certainly make a case it was rope-a-dope. When I think ropeadope I think laying against the ropes and preparing to take blows by moving the trunk primarily and covering the face.

[billeau2]

My remarks are about to be off task but I agree with historical reality.

I stumbled across an 1880s article where "designated blocking" was tested and recognized (made legal) in college (American) football.

The game up until that point was for players to 'play the ball' (carrier).

A Dartmouth boy, at the snap, slams into an unexpecting Cornell boy. The Cornell boy was holding back like a "safety" in case the runner broke free from the "mass play." (Their term)

Blindsided, the Cornell boy jumped up an yelled "unsportsmanlike." (Their term again; one of their first penalties, along with "piling on.")

The Dartmouth kid explained that was his man "to block." The game continued . . . until the next play.

Repeated event, Cornell guy throws a punch, benches cleared and Cornell refused to play. Forfeit!

They chewed it out all week and Walter Camp of Yale spoke for the majority* declairing that designated blocking, i.e. designed plays were great for the game.

So every once in a great while you can find (at least a reasonable facsimile of) the origin of something.

* The fraternities (Club Football, literally.) had been meeting every year since 1880, developing the game during the off season. With Walter Camp sharing his opinions with the NYT on the rule changes they made each year.

These same guys would create 'varsity footbal' and become the IAAUS in 1906 and the NCAA in 1910.

The game came from rich, bright kids, determined to measure up to their father's (veteran) generation who won the great war. They all wore coats and hats like Lincoln.

P.S. Walter Camp played for 6 1/2 seasons at Yale (Club Football) and then blew out his knee. Became coach.

That's an excellent example. I agree with you. Sometimes we are gifted with problems, or situations that are simple. I often wonder in baseball at what time did it become a thing for certain positions to exist for hitters. When was it determined your second baseman was probably not going to be your cleanup hitter?

End was it Ted Williams who really brought scientific principles to hitting? Certainly with Ruth it was a god-given talent because Ruth many believed was an even better pitcher. And when you can choose between those two you have some talent.

You brought a football pep here's another one, the west coast offense. You can pretty much designate modern football theory as a by product of this offense. What you see now in a quarterback has changed considerably. Quarterbacks have to have very high IQ like intelligence and memory, along with mobility. In the old days quarterbacks needed a good arm, mobility was helpful and generally there was your go-to guy.

[Ivich]

Locche was incredible. Absolutely superhuman. I wouldn't call his talent rope-a-dope although yeah I know he hung against the ropes. Again could be splitting hairs lol but Locche used incredible upper body movements. As a matter of fact if you watch him he uses segmented shoulder to head movements and timing. A lot of which is counterintuitive but very effective.

Was that said you could certainly make a case it was rope-a-dope. When I think ropeadope I think laying against the ropes and preparing to take blows by moving the trunk primarily and covering the face.

I wouldn't claim Locche invented the rope a dope,I just gave him as an example of some one who utilised it on occasion.

It's highly probable some old timer from way back, or some obscure pugilist originated it.
As we haven't ever seen any footage of the real old timers or all the less celebrated journeymen, nobody could or should make definitive claims about such things.To do so smacks of overweening vanity imo.

[Ivich]

It's cute you remember your sources I really don't understand how that does not confirm my point though. Oh you remember the convo, you remember you source, but do not remember what I told you to read. Like as if giving you a source is a waste of time. Hmm.

"When Rocky would get him momentarily pinned, he resorted to what Ali would later dub, "The rope-a-dope". " Sounds like someone before me related Roland and Rope-a-Dope. No reason for you to investigate that farther on your own, you can play semantics. Impressive He didn't say invented.


Some jabroni on the internet saying something similar to me isn't a source bud. It's evidence you should do more research though. I didn't pull it out of my ass. It's out there.



Does not know what Walcott's Sucka Punch is! Guess what *****, I shall source nothing and be 100% correct on this too. You being too ****ing lazy to do your own research means **** all. You being too ****ing lazy to have done decent research in the first place changes nothing.


A definition! We do LOVE semantics don't we?

Let me follow your lead there.

What is the definition of "Suzie-Q"? A song, a dance? How about the punch?

Let us use YOUR source:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Susy-Q

Susy-Q
noun
Su·sy-Q ˈsüzēˈkyü
: a dance step in which the hips and legs are swung sharply to one side while the shoulders and arms are bent forward and swung toward the opposite side with the clasped hands extended forward


Isn't that interesting? Doesn't say a damn thing about Marciano? Almost as if boxing lingo has a meaning beyond mainstream meaning. Hmmm. Room to play semantics galore.

Do I need to define Suzie-Q? Need a source for the definition? No, no I do not. Because it's super basic right? You know the 50s right? Ain't no missing something as basic as the Suzie-Q in the Marciano story. If you missed that you need more than a source for Suzie, you need a book for Rocky.



Jersey Joe Walcott's Sucka Punch has 0 to do with nasty dirty tactics and everything to do with his shoulders. One whose read Marciano should know all about the punch that dropped him. Should, even without having it pointed out to them, recognize the punch that dropped Rock is the same punch that set up for the Suzie. It is the Sucka.

Joe kept his feet at ortho and put his shoulders at southpaw. It's a preloaded punch fighting out of a mixed stance he incorporated into his shoulder work. AKA the punch that dropped Marciano, same punch Joe was going for when Marciano dropped Joe.


Sorry you'll have to read a book about Marciano instead of looking up words in a dictionary.



" Rocky Marciano’s encounter with Joe Walcott’s sucker punch showcased both the vulnerability and resilience of a champion. It’s a reminder that even the greatest fighters can be caught off guard, but true champions rise to the occasion. " - Pulled from my ass not a book. For reasons. Unexplainable reasons. Couldn't possibly be Ivich just missed something

I have Undefeated by Sullivan, Marciano by Skehan and have read a couple of others.

There is no mention of Walcott using a suck a punch in either book, nor is their any mention of Lastarza using the rope a dope in his career.

Walcott walked into Marciano pivoted and fired a left hook which dropped Marciano , no sucka punch there.

Walcott used to use the ropes as a springboard to come off them and fire a left hook counter, he tried it against Marciano but got beaten to the punch by Marciano's right.

Walcott feinted with his right and fired a rising left hook which floored and ko'd Charles no suck a punch there.Nor any mention of it in the next days papers.

Marciano's right cross was nick named the Suzie Q that is common knowledge. Walcott's left hook was not nicknamed anything nor was his right which dropped Louis
Walcott's footwork tactic was known as the cake walk or the walkaway, he did feint with his shoulders. You are scratching here your emnity for me is driving you to make silly tenuous connections that really do not exist.but it's okay it's what you do.

What no **** ,moron,prick, mook? I'm dissapointed,or,is the medication beginning to kick in?