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Originally posted by Dr. Z
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Based on their tweets, Rafael vs. Coppinger is coming soon. -
Originally posted by kara View Post
Hmmm..how do you handicap / see it going down? I think Rafael is about a cheese steak short of 275 pounds. So he will have the weight advantage. But he is short and fat in a sport that favors neither.
Now Coppinger does not look like a writer. He is bigger and in reasonable shape.
If they decide to give it go, it will be over in less than a New York minute. Coppinger will eat the fat Rafeal alive.
My call, Coppinger via KO in about 8 seconds. Rafael's only chance is to foul ASAP. He better bring his " write hooks "
EPSN could cover the match. They could fight in Saudi Arabia as the boxers they cover will be there.
IMO the people in boxing , the promoters, the other writers, and the fighters will have an interest in this.
The winner will get the loathsome Teddy AtlasComment
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Firpo in the HOF is a no brainer. Latin America is a big place. Bigger than all of Europe in land mass and nearly equal in population. Not a small thing.Originally posted by Dr. Z View Post
No Latin American sporting figure of the 1920's was more famous or revered.
"Beating ranked fighters" is an important measure, but a sliver compared to that.
To ensure that the record is kept straight, Luis Angel Firpo was an outstanding heavyweight contender in what was arguably the most talent rich era in boxing history.
For your edification, some light, required reading; so as to ensure that your confident opinions might also become accurate ones as well.
https://www.ringtv.com/662033-for-lu...-finally-over/
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Luis_%C3%81ngel_FirpoLast edited by Willow The Wisp; 12-18-2023, 08:04 PM.Comment
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I just want to throw in my favorite Firpo story.Originally posted by Willow The Wisp View Post
After suffering nine KDs in four minutes a dejected Firpo complained to the newspapers a month later that he got a "quick count" claiming he was on the floor for only eight seconds. He also complained that his second was denied the opportunity to protest the count when he was 'forcefully blocked' from entering the ring.
This begs one question: How many more times did this man Firpo intend being KD and still continue to get up? LOL
Maybe, in the debate on 'King of Recuperation' it should be Luis Firpo as 'king' based on this fight alone.
New York Times, November 20th 1923.
P.S. In the article, Chairman of the NYSAC William Muldoon repudiates Firpo's claim, arguing that Firpo had gotten several 'long counts' before the final stoppage.
P.S.S. I have always assumed the term 'long count' was coined for the Dempsey-Tunney II 'long count' fight. Obviously I shouldn't assume, for here is Muldoon using the phrase twice in 1923, four years before the Chicago fight in 1927.
Oh, and he is being quoted when saying it; it's Muldoon's words.
I wonder how common the phrase was before it became synonymous with the Dempsey-Tunney mess?
Last edited by Willie Pep 229; 12-18-2023, 09:34 PM.
Willow The Wisp
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Originally posted by Willow The Wisp View Post
A couple of things.
1. Fripo is from Argentina. He is an ethnic Italian from South America, not Central America.
2. He was a real reach for the HOF.
3. There were about 20 more deserving men for the HOF.
4. Calling the 1920's a rich heavyweight era is well fan boy stuff if one is familiar with heavyweight boxing.Comment
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Be nice Doc, and never bring a pea shooter to a gunfight. Remember that it is a privilege to discuss boxing with me; as arrogant as that may sound.Originally posted by Dr. Z View Post
Nevertheless; give me those 20.
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Sure. I'll pea shoot some namesOriginally posted by Willow The Wisp View Post
Michael Nunn is one of the IBHOF’s worst snubs. Michael “Second to” Nunn was 58-4 with 38 knockouts. He held world championships at middleweight and super middleweight. He also fought at light heavyweight and won the vacant NABF light heavyweight title in 1997. Nunn had signature wins over Iran Barkley, Donald Curry, Juan Roldan, Frank Tate and another snub in this list, Marlon Starling.
Steve Collins was 36-3 with 21 knockouts. Nicknamed the “Celtic Warrior,” he held middleweight and super middleweight championships simultaneously and never lost a championship match. Collins retired in frustration when Roy Jones Jr. refused to face him. Collins said money was not important to him and that he would "fight him in a phone box in front of two men and a dog." But Jones wanted no part of Collins, apparently. Collins had signature wins over Chris Pyatt and two other snubs in this list: Chris Eubank (twice) and Nigel Benn (twice).
Esteban De Jesus was 58-5 with signature wins over Roberto Duran, Edwin Viruet, Ray Lampkin (twice) and Buzzsaw Yamabe. From 1972 until his retirement in 1980, De Jesus never lost to anyone at 135 pounds except Duran, and he was the only lightweight to defeat Duran, who was 62-0 against all the other lightweights.
Ernesto Marcel was 40-4-2 with signature wins over Alexis Arguello, Antonio Gomez and Bernardo Caraballo. Ernesto “Ņato” Marcel had a fluent boxing style and was arguably one of the greatest featherweights of all time. “Marcel’s name has been on the Hall of Fame ballot but he never got inducted,” boxing historian Don Majeski told Boxing Social. “I consider him a great fighter. I’d rate him higher than Eusebio Pedroza. I’d go so far as to say Marcel is one of the most underrated boxers of all time. Marcel could do it all. He was a complete fighter. He was aggressive but also he could box and he could punch. The complete package. And he had this million-dollar smile. I always remember that about him.”
Nigel Benn was 42-5-1 with 35 knockouts. He was nicknamed the “Dark Destroyer” and held titles at middleweight and super middleweight. Because he was an Englishman and his last name was Benn, his entrance was announced with the chimes of Big Ben. Very clever! Benn had signature wins over Iran Barkley, Doug DeWitt, Robbie Sims and Gerald McClellan.
Jose Basora was 78-20-6 with 44 knockouts. Nearly half his losses came at the tail end of his career. Basora held the great Sugar Ray Robinson to a draw and had signature wins over Fritzie Zivic, Jake LaMotta (1-0-1), and Holman Williams (3-3-1 but 2-0-1 in their last three fights).
Bert Lytell was 71-23-7 with 24 knockouts. Nicknamed “Chocolate Kid,” he was denied title shots due to his color. Lytell was a charter member of “Murderer’s Row,” a group of African-American boxers who were shamelessly avoided by championship boxers during the 1940s. Lytell had signature wins over the great Charley Burley, Holman Williams, and another snub in this list, Jose Basora. Lytell also held his own with hall-of-famers Jake LaMotta and Harold Johnson in split-decision losses.
Aaron Wade was 64-16-6 with 32 knockouts and signature wins over Archie Moore, Bert Lytell, Oakland Billy Smith (three times) and Herbert Hardwick aka the Cocoa Kid. Nine of Wade’s losses came at the tail-end of his career, against formidable opponents.
Chris Eubank was 45-5-2 with 23 knockouts. He held world championships at middleweight and super middleweight. Eubank had signature wins over Graciano Rocchigiani, Sam Storey, Henry Wharton and another snub in this list, Nigel Benn. The undefeated “Super” Joe Calzaghe said his match with Eubank was the toughest fight of his career. Three of Eubank’s losses came in his last three fights.
Jimmy Young was 35-18-3 with signature wins over George Foreman and Ron Lyle (twice). Young was a slick heavyweight who gave Muhammad Ali fits in their fight. Many fans thought Young won that bout. The bulk of his losses (12) came after he turned 30.
Tippy Larkin was 134-15-1 and it was said that no one could out-box him. Ever. The only way to beat Tippy was to tip him over, with a knockout, and a glass chin made him vulnerable to the more powerful punchers. As Robert Aaron Contreras observed, Larkin “may have been the smoothest, most tactical, best pure boxer of all-time.” But his achilles heel was his chin. Larkin was knocked out by the best of them: “Homicide Hank” Henry Armstrong, Beau Jack, Ike Williams, Lew Jenkins and Al “Bummy” Davis. But when he avoided being knocked out, Tippy earned signature wins against Billy Graham, Willie Joyce (three times), former world welterweight champion Freddie “Red” Cochrane (five times), Billy Beauhuld (twice), Leo Rodak, Lulu Constantino, Aldo Minelli (twice) and Ruby Kessler (twice). At age 31, Tippy was 123-11-1 against formidable opposition, and that’s plenty good for the HOF, surely.
Meldrick Taylor was 38-8-1 and half his losses came at the tail end of his career. He was nicknamed “The Kid” because he won an Olympic gold medal at age 17. As a professional boxer, Taylor held titles at light welterweight and welterweight. He had signature wins over Ramon Flores, Aaron Davis, Ernie Chavez and former snub in this list, Buddy McGirt, who has finally been elected to the IBHOF. Taylor took the the #1 pound-for-pound fighter in the world, Julio Cesar Chavez Sr., to the limit in their first fight. Taylor had wide leads on two of the three judges’ scorecards going into the final round, so all he had to do was survive to have his hand raised. But in the final seconds, Chavez decked Taylor. Taylor got up, but referee Richard Steele stopped the fight with two freakin’ seconds left!
Kathy Duva of Main Events remembers: “I tell people all the time it’s the most heartbreaking loss in the history of sports, and I dare anyone to come up with a more heartbreaking one. He was ahead after 11 rounds, and he was standing on his feet, and there were two seconds left in the fight, and for no reason the referee stopped it. Taking that win away from him that he earned broke his heart. I don’t think he was ever the same again. It was so unfair to have that taken from him.”
Meldrick Taylor would never be the same boxer again. He had been 24-0-1 entering the Chavez fight. But he suffered severe damage in the Chavez fight, including a broken orbital bone and kidney damage. Taylor thinks Chavez’s gloves had been doctored: “My face swelled up fast; I never swelled up before. How come it did in that fight? He didn’t catch me a lot in the early rounds.
Marlon Starling was 45-6-1 with 27 knockouts. However, the very astute Gerry Harper noted in the comments that Starling, in his entire career, only beat four fighters rated in the top ten by Ring Magazine.
Armando “Mando” Ramos was 37-11-1 with 23 knockouts. He was the youngest boxer to win the lightweight title, which he held twice. Mando was the world’s best-paid teenager in the 1960s, women caught “Mandomania” and Hollywood loved the “Wonder Boy.” He had signature wins over Sugar Ramos and Pedro Carrasco (another media darling).
Matt Wells was 50-30-6 but 17 of those losses came when he was over the hill and presumably fighting because he needed the money. Wells had signature wins over hall-of-famers Freddie Welsh and Abe Attell and the highly regarded Leach Cross. So why isn’t Wells in the IBHOF? After all, HOFer Abe Wolgast was 0-3 versus Welsh and 0-2 versus Cross.
Jackie Patterson aka Jackie Paterson was 63-25-3 and 10 of those losses came at the tail end of his career, in his last 13 fights. Furthermore, he was undefeated as a flyweight for seven years and many of his losses came against bigger men. Patterson had signature wins over Rinty Monaghan, Jim Brady, Paddy Ryan (twice), Tut Whalley and Peter Kane.
George “Elbows” McFadden was 50-19-27 in the Golden Age of Lightweights. Nat Fleischer said McFadden would have been “a champion in any other era.” McFadden had signature wins over Joe Gans, Kid Lavigne, Wilmington Jack Daly and Patsy Sweeney (twice).
Willie Joyce was 72-21-10 and that was in the Golden Age of Lightweights. He had signature wins over the great Henry Armstrong (three times!), Lew Jenkins (twice), Ike Williams, Chalky Wright and Leo Rodak.
Jack Chase was 81-24-12 with signature wins over Archie Moore, Lloyd Marshall, Eddie Booker, Harry Matthews and Aaron Wade (twice).
Harry Jeffra was 94-20-7 with 28 knockouts and signature wins over Sixto Escobar (4-1), Joey Archibald (twice), Jackie Wilson, Phil Terranova and Lou Salica.
Rafael Herrera was 48-9-4 with 19 knockouts and signature wins over Ruben Olivares (twice), Rodolfo Martinez (twice) and Chucho Castillo.
Paddy DeMarco was 75-26-3 with just eight knockouts in over 100 fights! He had signature wins over Sandy Saddler (twice), Billy Graham, Ralph Dupas, Humberto Sierra (twice), Enrique Bolanos, Kenny Lane and Jimmy Carter. DeMarco was 32-2 before dropping a decision to Willie Pep, who was 131-1-1 at the time.
Lou Salica was 62-17-12 albeit with just 13 knockouts. He had signature victories over Manuel Ortiz, Midget Wolgast and Sixto Escobar. However, Ortiz and Escobar both defeated Salica twice in return matches. Salica also beat former flyweight champ Small Montana and contenders like Tony Olivera and Georgie Pace.
Is this enough fighter better than Firpo? I did not research all of them and they could have / did get in recently.Comment
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Now that's more like it!Originally posted by Dr. Z View Post
Sure. I'll pea shoot some names
Michael Nunn is one of the IBHOF’s worst snubs. Michael “Second to” Nunn was 58-4 with 38 knockouts. He held world championships at middleweight and super middleweight. He also fought at light heavyweight and won the vacant NABF light heavyweight title in 1997. Nunn had signature wins over Iran Barkley, Donald Curry, Juan Roldan, Frank Tate and another snub in this list, Marlon Starling.
Steve Collins was 36-3 with 21 knockouts. Nicknamed the “Celtic Warrior,” he held middleweight and super middleweight championships simultaneously and never lost a championship match. Collins retired in frustration when Roy Jones Jr. refused to face him. Collins said money was not important to him and that he would "fight him in a phone box in front of two men and a dog." But Jones wanted no part of Collins, apparently. Collins had signature wins over Chris Pyatt and two other snubs in this list: Chris Eubank (twice) and Nigel Benn (twice).
Esteban De Jesus was 58-5 with signature wins over Roberto Duran, Edwin Viruet, Ray Lampkin (twice) and Buzzsaw Yamabe. From 1972 until his retirement in 1980, De Jesus never lost to anyone at 135 pounds except Duran, and he was the only lightweight to defeat Duran, who was 62-0 against all the other lightweights.
Ernesto Marcel was 40-4-2 with signature wins over Alexis Arguello, Antonio Gomez and Bernardo Caraballo. Ernesto “Ņato” Marcel had a fluent boxing style and was arguably one of the greatest featherweights of all time. “Marcel’s name has been on the Hall of Fame ballot but he never got inducted,” boxing historian Don Majeski told Boxing Social. “I consider him a great fighter. I’d rate him higher than Eusebio Pedroza. I’d go so far as to say Marcel is one of the most underrated boxers of all time. Marcel could do it all. He was a complete fighter. He was aggressive but also he could box and he could punch. The complete package. And he had this million-dollar smile. I always remember that about him.”
Nigel Benn was 42-5-1 with 35 knockouts. He was nicknamed the “Dark Destroyer” and held titles at middleweight and super middleweight. Because he was an Englishman and his last name was Benn, his entrance was announced with the chimes of Big Ben. Very clever! Benn had signature wins over Iran Barkley, Doug DeWitt, Robbie Sims and Gerald McClellan.
Jose Basora was 78-20-6 with 44 knockouts. Nearly half his losses came at the tail end of his career. Basora held the great Sugar Ray Robinson to a draw and had signature wins over Fritzie Zivic, Jake LaMotta (1-0-1), and Holman Williams (3-3-1 but 2-0-1 in their last three fights).
Bert Lytell was 71-23-7 with 24 knockouts. Nicknamed “Chocolate Kid,” he was denied title shots due to his color. Lytell was a charter member of “Murderer’s Row,” a group of African-American boxers who were shamelessly avoided by championship boxers during the 1940s. Lytell had signature wins over the great Charley Burley, Holman Williams, and another snub in this list, Jose Basora. Lytell also held his own with hall-of-famers Jake LaMotta and Harold Johnson in split-decision losses.
Aaron Wade was 64-16-6 with 32 knockouts and signature wins over Archie Moore, Bert Lytell, Oakland Billy Smith (three times) and Herbert Hardwick aka the Cocoa Kid. Nine of Wade’s losses came at the tail-end of his career, against formidable opponents.
Chris Eubank was 45-5-2 with 23 knockouts. He held world championships at middleweight and super middleweight. Eubank had signature wins over Graciano Rocchigiani, Sam Storey, Henry Wharton and another snub in this list, Nigel Benn. The undefeated “Super” Joe Calzaghe said his match with Eubank was the toughest fight of his career. Three of Eubank’s losses came in his last three fights.
Jimmy Young was 35-18-3 with signature wins over George Foreman and Ron Lyle (twice). Young was a slick heavyweight who gave Muhammad Ali fits in their fight. Many fans thought Young won that bout. The bulk of his losses (12) came after he turned 30.
Tippy Larkin was 134-15-1 and it was said that no one could out-box him. Ever. The only way to beat Tippy was to tip him over, with a knockout, and a glass chin made him vulnerable to the more powerful punchers. As Robert Aaron Contreras observed, Larkin “may have been the smoothest, most tactical, best pure boxer of all-time.” But his achilles heel was his chin. Larkin was knocked out by the best of them: “Homicide Hank” Henry Armstrong, Beau Jack, Ike Williams, Lew Jenkins and Al “Bummy” Davis. But when he avoided being knocked out, Tippy earned signature wins against Billy Graham, Willie Joyce (three times), former world welterweight champion Freddie “Red” Cochrane (five times), Billy Beauhuld (twice), Leo Rodak, Lulu Constantino, Aldo Minelli (twice) and Ruby Kessler (twice). At age 31, Tippy was 123-11-1 against formidable opposition, and that’s plenty good for the HOF, surely.
Meldrick Taylor was 38-8-1 and half his losses came at the tail end of his career. He was nicknamed “The Kid” because he won an Olympic gold medal at age 17. As a professional boxer, Taylor held titles at light welterweight and welterweight. He had signature wins over Ramon Flores, Aaron Davis, Ernie Chavez and former snub in this list, Buddy McGirt, who has finally been elected to the IBHOF. Taylor took the the #1 pound-for-pound fighter in the world, Julio Cesar Chavez Sr., to the limit in their first fight. Taylor had wide leads on two of the three judges’ scorecards going into the final round, so all he had to do was survive to have his hand raised. But in the final seconds, Chavez decked Taylor. Taylor got up, but referee Richard Steele stopped the fight with two freakin’ seconds left!
Kathy Duva of Main Events remembers: “I tell people all the time it’s the most heartbreaking loss in the history of sports, and I dare anyone to come up with a more heartbreaking one. He was ahead after 11 rounds, and he was standing on his feet, and there were two seconds left in the fight, and for no reason the referee stopped it. Taking that win away from him that he earned broke his heart. I don’t think he was ever the same again. It was so unfair to have that taken from him.”
Meldrick Taylor would never be the same boxer again. He had been 24-0-1 entering the Chavez fight. But he suffered severe damage in the Chavez fight, including a broken orbital bone and kidney damage. Taylor thinks Chavez’s gloves had been doctored: “My face swelled up fast; I never swelled up before. How come it did in that fight? He didn’t catch me a lot in the early rounds.
Marlon Starling was 45-6-1 with 27 knockouts. However, the very astute Gerry Harper noted in the comments that Starling, in his entire career, only beat four fighters rated in the top ten by Ring Magazine.
Armando “Mando” Ramos was 37-11-1 with 23 knockouts. He was the youngest boxer to win the lightweight title, which he held twice. Mando was the world’s best-paid teenager in the 1960s, women caught “Mandomania” and Hollywood loved the “Wonder Boy.” He had signature wins over Sugar Ramos and Pedro Carrasco (another media darling).
Matt Wells was 50-30-6 but 17 of those losses came when he was over the hill and presumably fighting because he needed the money. Wells had signature wins over hall-of-famers Freddie Welsh and Abe Attell and the highly regarded Leach Cross. So why isn’t Wells in the IBHOF? After all, HOFer Abe Wolgast was 0-3 versus Welsh and 0-2 versus Cross.
Jackie Patterson aka Jackie Paterson was 63-25-3 and 10 of those losses came at the tail end of his career, in his last 13 fights. Furthermore, he was undefeated as a flyweight for seven years and many of his losses came against bigger men. Patterson had signature wins over Rinty Monaghan, Jim Brady, Paddy Ryan (twice), Tut Whalley and Peter Kane.
George “Elbows” McFadden was 50-19-27 in the Golden Age of Lightweights. Nat Fleischer said McFadden would have been “a champion in any other era.” McFadden had signature wins over Joe Gans, Kid Lavigne, Wilmington Jack Daly and Patsy Sweeney (twice).
Willie Joyce was 72-21-10 and that was in the Golden Age of Lightweights. He had signature wins over the great Henry Armstrong (three times!), Lew Jenkins (twice), Ike Williams, Chalky Wright and Leo Rodak.
Jack Chase was 81-24-12 with signature wins over Archie Moore, Lloyd Marshall, Eddie Booker, Harry Matthews and Aaron Wade (twice).
Harry Jeffra was 94-20-7 with 28 knockouts and signature wins over Sixto Escobar (4-1), Joey Archibald (twice), Jackie Wilson, Phil Terranova and Lou Salica.
Rafael Herrera was 48-9-4 with 19 knockouts and signature wins over Ruben Olivares (twice), Rodolfo Martinez (twice) and Chucho Castillo.
Paddy DeMarco was 75-26-3 with just eight knockouts in over 100 fights! He had signature wins over Sandy Saddler (twice), Billy Graham, Ralph Dupas, Humberto Sierra (twice), Enrique Bolanos, Kenny Lane and Jimmy Carter. DeMarco was 32-2 before dropping a decision to Willie Pep, who was 131-1-1 at the time.
Lou Salica was 62-17-12 albeit with just 13 knockouts. He had signature victories over Manuel Ortiz, Midget Wolgast and Sixto Escobar. However, Ortiz and Escobar both defeated Salica twice in return matches. Salica also beat former flyweight champ Small Montana and contenders like Tony Olivera and Georgie Pace.
Is this enough fighter better than Firpo? I did not research all of them and they could have / did get in recently.
Excellent post and worthwhile response. That's the kind of work that is expected of you, and thank you for your effort here.
A number of these I have advocated for, and there are 5 that I am very confident will eventually be selected for enshrinement.
Your list, encompassing all male fighter categories, is really the tip of the iceberg.
I was anticipating a list of those suited for the Old Timers category alone (to beat out Luis Firpo), but I sure won't quibble with a fine response such as yours.
The IBHOF has throttled induction of the old timers, for the sake of not "running out" in 10, 20, 30+ years down the road.
Just good planning, I concede.
Owing to poor planning, the IBHOF's "Old Timer" category has seen a moving bar, and is divided now into two different pre-Modern / post-Pioneer eras:
The “Early” era, with final bout no earlier than 1893 and no later than 1942.
As well as the “Late” era, with final bout no earlier than 1943; and no later than 1988.
(WTF, I have socks in my drawer older than 1988).
I have submitted to the hall board a bit of reseach seeking to outline a breakdown of HOF members relative to historical professional participation for all of the major pro sports, in order to derive a hall of fame worthy percentile; which was more time consuming in development than you might think, once you delve into the pioneering days of each sport and make determination as to what "professional" actually means for some of them.
The goal is to understand what a good target number is for being "worthy" as well as "Full up" per 10 year block of time, using the medium from the combined example.
It may interest some to know that the IBHOF is on the "picky" end.
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Getting say 75 % of the vote for the finalists should get you in.Last edited by Dr. Z; 12-19-2023, 12:48 PM.
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