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So... in my very misguided opinion, I believe the heavyweights are the keeper of the flame historically... It has to happen in that division, which gives any historical event, the juice it needs to convey the change in the sport. With this said I believe when Tunney fought Dempsey we saw the first real "old preclassical versus new." Dempsey was the new, the puncher, Tunney had elements of both, but was essentially the perfection of the pre classical approach: "sword length space, fighting with mobile footwork employing back to front foot action, combinations, angles, etc...
Perhaps the second watershed fight in heavyweight history may well be when Mike Weaver fought John Tate in the mid seventies for a championship fight (fight posted below). I am posting the fight below so people can watch it to confirm what they believe to be, then we get into the analysis of the fight as seminal in Boxing history, at least in my opinion. First the tale of the tape. Both men had good reach with Tate having two more inches so...Both similar age, 25 and 27 with Tate being the younger man... But the big difference and a very important difference to control for is the relative size of each man: Keeping in mind that we have a control for weight, given that the other physical qualities possessed by each man are so similar... Tate, who often fought at 240, came into this fight at 232, Weaver came in at 2071/2.
Lets look at Weaver, a latecomer to the sport who learned quickly and developed his craft purely in the professional ranks of the sport, initially as a sparring partner for Norton and Ali. Weaver developed a wealth of experience that in many ways mimicked the way boxers gained such experience in the past... I personally was suprised to learn Weaver had in the neighborhood of 60 professional fights! Weaver, who had a magnificant physique, was on the smaller side for a heavyweight. By the time he went in to fight Tate Weaver was mid-career and had been mecurial... but aside from a loss to Holmes, had been winning his fights. Weaver had good power, probably better than his KO percentage indicates... and decent technical chops.
Big John Tate was on the road to success. He was a member of one of the better olympic boxing teams for the United States, winning a bronze, fighting such legends at Stephenson, the great Cuban heavyweight. Big John turned pro in 1977 and was knocking them down. And while Weaver was a smaller heavyweight with more pro experience, Big John was an olympic apogee! Steeped in the amatuer style Tate was often called a punching machine, as he relentlessly pursued opposition with very basic one two combinations... He put knoxville Tennessee on the map for what was considered an outstanding boxing training program.
Was Big John a harbinger of things to come? Big, amatuer trained, heavyweights... Which would start to populate the ranks of boxing's heavyweight division. These fighters were skilled, but basic in their approach. If we watch John his attack consisted of a basic one two. He could certainly throw other shots, like the uppercut, but more often than not, what got him the Gold ring, and not the brass, was this sustained attack. John's feet were not slow, he had good head movement compared to later fighters like Klitsko... I believe that given his attributes he was very similar to later big men who could punch, but had certain limits to their technical abilities. Big John was defensively responsible to a point as well (just thought I would throw that in there lol).
When Tate faced Weaver he had the momentum, the size, but as we will see... it was not enough. How did Weaver manage to beat Tate? If you watch the fight, you will notice that the mistaken assumption was, Weaver pulled a Hail Mary punch out of the bag... Not so!
Tate had the advantage in the early and many of the middle rounds. Weaver started to come on in the 12th round. It was at this point that Weaver started to find Big John with good punches. Weaver even became the aggressor, walking Big John down... and it is important to note here that Tate could bounce, and move quite well compared to his large contemporaries. When Weaver caught Tate it was certainly not inevitable, but it was part of an effort that saw Weaver having more and more success as the fight wore on.
Tate, to me was the first of the very big heavyweights coming from amatuer backgrounds that would start to become a good section of the next generation... he was similar to fighters like the Klitskos, Joshua, and many other bigger heavyweights that started to come up and populate the division. Much like the Tunney Dempsey fight showed, both preclassical and modern approaches to boxing were both effective, through the efforts of both fighters, I believe Tate showed a certain limited effectiveness, coupled with a vulnerability to a smaller, professionally developed fighter with the same amount of experience, but experience purely as a professional. While Tate was limited, if one watches Weaver, he parries, he uses a variety of punches, and cuts the ring down... the hook Weaver throws was always a decent punch... Unlike Tate, Weaver could throw more variety and had a more nuanced approach to the sport.
Ultimately, when someone pipes up here "Marciano was 190 and this guy was 240" we should also look at this fight as instructive: Tate was a learned, not just a big man... he had good foot and hand speed, and could win fights professionally. Yet, a fighter he dwarfed in size was able to take him into deep water and drown him. Size played very little advantage in this fight because despite the weight difference, both men were heavyweights... In a sense it did not matter what they weighed.
Perhaps the second watershed fight in heavyweight history may well be when Mike Weaver fought John Tate in the mid seventies for a championship fight (fight posted below). I am posting the fight below so people can watch it to confirm what they believe to be, then we get into the analysis of the fight as seminal in Boxing history, at least in my opinion. First the tale of the tape. Both men had good reach with Tate having two more inches so...Both similar age, 25 and 27 with Tate being the younger man... But the big difference and a very important difference to control for is the relative size of each man: Keeping in mind that we have a control for weight, given that the other physical qualities possessed by each man are so similar... Tate, who often fought at 240, came into this fight at 232, Weaver came in at 2071/2.
Lets look at Weaver, a latecomer to the sport who learned quickly and developed his craft purely in the professional ranks of the sport, initially as a sparring partner for Norton and Ali. Weaver developed a wealth of experience that in many ways mimicked the way boxers gained such experience in the past... I personally was suprised to learn Weaver had in the neighborhood of 60 professional fights! Weaver, who had a magnificant physique, was on the smaller side for a heavyweight. By the time he went in to fight Tate Weaver was mid-career and had been mecurial... but aside from a loss to Holmes, had been winning his fights. Weaver had good power, probably better than his KO percentage indicates... and decent technical chops.
Big John Tate was on the road to success. He was a member of one of the better olympic boxing teams for the United States, winning a bronze, fighting such legends at Stephenson, the great Cuban heavyweight. Big John turned pro in 1977 and was knocking them down. And while Weaver was a smaller heavyweight with more pro experience, Big John was an olympic apogee! Steeped in the amatuer style Tate was often called a punching machine, as he relentlessly pursued opposition with very basic one two combinations... He put knoxville Tennessee on the map for what was considered an outstanding boxing training program.
Was Big John a harbinger of things to come? Big, amatuer trained, heavyweights... Which would start to populate the ranks of boxing's heavyweight division. These fighters were skilled, but basic in their approach. If we watch John his attack consisted of a basic one two. He could certainly throw other shots, like the uppercut, but more often than not, what got him the Gold ring, and not the brass, was this sustained attack. John's feet were not slow, he had good head movement compared to later fighters like Klitsko... I believe that given his attributes he was very similar to later big men who could punch, but had certain limits to their technical abilities. Big John was defensively responsible to a point as well (just thought I would throw that in there lol).
When Tate faced Weaver he had the momentum, the size, but as we will see... it was not enough. How did Weaver manage to beat Tate? If you watch the fight, you will notice that the mistaken assumption was, Weaver pulled a Hail Mary punch out of the bag... Not so!
Tate had the advantage in the early and many of the middle rounds. Weaver started to come on in the 12th round. It was at this point that Weaver started to find Big John with good punches. Weaver even became the aggressor, walking Big John down... and it is important to note here that Tate could bounce, and move quite well compared to his large contemporaries. When Weaver caught Tate it was certainly not inevitable, but it was part of an effort that saw Weaver having more and more success as the fight wore on.
Tate, to me was the first of the very big heavyweights coming from amatuer backgrounds that would start to become a good section of the next generation... he was similar to fighters like the Klitskos, Joshua, and many other bigger heavyweights that started to come up and populate the division. Much like the Tunney Dempsey fight showed, both preclassical and modern approaches to boxing were both effective, through the efforts of both fighters, I believe Tate showed a certain limited effectiveness, coupled with a vulnerability to a smaller, professionally developed fighter with the same amount of experience, but experience purely as a professional. While Tate was limited, if one watches Weaver, he parries, he uses a variety of punches, and cuts the ring down... the hook Weaver throws was always a decent punch... Unlike Tate, Weaver could throw more variety and had a more nuanced approach to the sport.
Ultimately, when someone pipes up here "Marciano was 190 and this guy was 240" we should also look at this fight as instructive: Tate was a learned, not just a big man... he had good foot and hand speed, and could win fights professionally. Yet, a fighter he dwarfed in size was able to take him into deep water and drown him. Size played very little advantage in this fight because despite the weight difference, both men were heavyweights... In a sense it did not matter what they weighed.
Dr. Z
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