Willie Pep and Bill wondering: What is the difference between a Gate Keeper and a Journeyman? Where does the term "Gate Keeper" in boxing come from?

[billeau2]

So on another thread this question came up. Pep, initially under the impression that the term Gate Keeper was a more ubiquitous usage, I believe for political patronage, asked how the term applied to boxing. I then pointed out that it was a term designating... well lol, designating a journeyman.

We discussed how a gate keeper is sort of a level of ability that one must show the ability to beat, in order to fight in the champion's domain. But I agree with Pep that nothing distinguishes a gate keeper from a journeyman.

Anybody have anything they know about when the term came into boxing parlance? what distinction, if any, it makes? etc.

[max baer]

bugner in the 80's was considered a gatekeeper to a great extent, ernie shavers was a bit like a gatekeeper. possibly ken norton at one stage in his career. it is a very strange position to me as they have to be world class yet not at the pinnacle of the summit of world's best.
i will think of more in a bit as they enter my memory.
oh yeah derick chisora!!

[max baer]

i think gatekeeper is only thought of as such in years later hindsight whereas journeymen are known as such at the time he was losing. that is a difference to me. what about mike weaver? perhaps not.
greg page, gerry cooney. ????

[Eff Pandas]

I feel like you guys in that they are very similar terms so you can interchange them often. I would say Journeyman feels like a lower level than Gate Keeper to me tho. Journeymen feel more common a type we see. Theres a lot of them in boxing. You can fight these types as soon as you've become a legit prospect being seen as someone with a future in the game. A Gate Keeper is a higher caliber of Journeyman thats more of a guy who's guarding the ground between a prospect trying to cross over to a contender. These guys are rarer & you could often argue they are fringe contenders but can't quite get all the way into legit contender status.

[GhostofDempsey]

A journeyman is considered a notch below gatekeeper. The journeymen are who you have to beat to challenge the gatekeeper and earn a shot at a title. A gatekeeper is often the last to know his designation as one because he is coming with the expectation of winning. A gatekeeper could also be a former champion, most journeymen never win a major title. At least that's way I've always understood the terms. Not sure who coined the term gatekeeper for boxers.

[Willie Pep 229]

Does being g a gatekeeper necessitate at least one failed attempt at a title?

Does being a strap holder negate you from being a gatekeeper?

I'll throw Ray Mercer into the group. A strap holder, and a failed contender. Certainly no mere journeyman, but never a true champion.

But then again isn't that a contender? I am having a hard time putting the term into a pigon-hole.

To call Jerry Quarry a gatekeeper, or would that be an insult to him?

[max baer]

Does being g a gatekeeper necessitate at least one failed attempt at a title?

Does being a strap holder negate you from being a gatekeeper?

I'll throw Ray Mercer into the group. A strap holder, and a failed contender. Certainly no mere journeyman, but never a true champion.

But then again isn't that a contender? I am having a hard time putting the term into a pigon-hole.

To call Jerry Quarry a gatekeeper, or would that be an insult to him?

i think that term has to come at the end of their career as we can't label them until they have reached that level and failed. it's like people in 1929 calling the great war "world war one" it is only possible later when the dust has settled on wars for a time.

[Eff Pandas]

Does being g a gatekeeper necessitate at least one failed attempt at a title?

No. I'd say some guys will have a failed belt fight & some won't.

Does being a strap holder negate you from being a gatekeeper?

No. I think you could go from being a prospect to contender to belt holder to contender to gate keeper to journeyman over a career.

I'll throw Ray Mercer into the group. A strap holder, and a failed contender. Certainly no mere journeyman, but never a true champion.

But then again isn't that a contender? I am having a hard time putting the term into a pigon-hole.

To call Jerry Quarry a gatekeeper, or would that be an insult to him?

I'd call Ray more of a contender during his best yrs. Anyone in the top ten, top 15 is a world class guy &/or contender to me (in most divisions anyway, I'm more picky about that in womens boxing & smaller guy divisions where there are fewer fighters). The WBO wasn't a legit belt when he held it so I agree he wasn't a true belt guy. He probably drifted down to fringe contender, gate keeper &/or journeyman after the Lennox L.

I'm not hip enough about Quarry to comment on that. He was before my time.

[Ivich]

So on another thread this question came up. Pep, initially under the impression that the term Gate Keeper was a more ubiquitous usage, I believe for political patronage, asked how the term applied to boxing. I then pointed out that it was a term designating... well lol, designating a journeyman.

We discussed how a gate keeper is sort of a level of ability that one must show the ability to beat, in order to fight in the champion's domain. But I agree with Pep that nothing distinguishes a gate keeper from a journeyman.

Anybody have anything they know about when the term came into boxing parlance? what distinction, if any, it makes? etc.

As I understand the terms a gate keeper is one capable of giving a decent account of himself against the best without being quite good enough to beat the top men. If you like ,a measuring stick to gauge the abilities of up and comers .
A fighter that those with ambitions towards top class must overcome.
I would count the following examples as gate keepers;
Carlos Takam
Dereck Chisora
Otto Wallin


A journeyman ,imo. is a fighter never good enough to be more than an opponent,a man who loses almost as often as he wins.
Guys like;
Ted Lowry
Roberto Davila
Jack O Halloran
Duke Sabedong
Scrap IronJohnson

That's just my opinion of the terms,

[billeau2]

bugner in the 80's was considered a gatekeeper to a great extent, ernie shavers was a bit like a gatekeeper. possibly ken norton at one stage in his career. it is a very strange position to me as they have to be world class yet not at the pinnacle of the summit of world's best.
i will think of more in a bit as they enter my memory.
oh yeah derick chisora!!

Chisora!!! It is who I think of when I think of the position.