Carlos Monzon. How great was he? Feel free to post a fight.

[billeau2]

He’s at the very least in the discussion for the greatest MW of all time. I don’t think that’s debatable.

I was hoping you would weigh in Dan as I know you have said Monzon was one of your favorites... Mine also. Monzon had understated skills and to me those are impressive because they are not obvious. It was obvious Monzon was a heavy handed, consistent puncher who could finish very well... But defensively he did things like using a back step with a slight arc. This allowed him to take a shot and keep in range to counter. Now... If I am a big middle weight, who can punch, I want to be in range to attack and probably can take a shot if I deflect it, to give one back. By doing so, Monzon never really had to stop attacking his opponent.

Monzon used this step to attack relentlessly and consistently. It is interesting because it looks at first like he goes straight back, but if you look closely you can see how there is an ever-so-slight semi circle so he is not just backwards and off balance.

Monzon also had an underrated jab.

[billeau2]

All psychopaths are dangerous. Lol

There are rumors-- rumors - that they (his backers) had to pay off **** victims even before he became champion.

Ray Arcel once stated that Monzon was the only fighter (and remember Arcel handled Duran for a while) he ever saw who actually enjoyed fighting. He seemed to feed off violence.

P.S. He use to change smoke cigarettes while doing his road work. Yet never seemed to fade in the late rounds. Strange man.

Jeez!! What is it with Argentines and the ability to be impervious to the effects of chronic smoking? Locke also was a chain smoker!

I do not think it was some strange insidious quality of Monzon's Psychopathy that he enjoyed ritualized violence in the ring... and Duran certainly did! Most fighters enjoy fighting... not all. Ray Robinson wanted to be a dancer and was alleged not to enjoy fighting. My own POV, as someone who had to fight a lot in the street as a kid, and a real lot coming up in a fighting karate club... I know what it feels like to not like to fight and have to do it. I learned to be excellent at it from most perspectives but knew better than to try to professionally fight. there is a BIG fat divide... and many guys who can fight and do not like to, cannot admit that this is a black and white issue of sorts. It makes a difference and to sustain a professional career, you better enjoy it on some level!

[billeau2]

In the top 4 all time along with Greb ,Robinson ,and Hagler,Mickey Duff promoter,matchmaker , manager,and an excellent judge of fighters thought he would beat Robinson.

If I had to take the raw stuff of human physiology and make a heavyweight, it would look like Liston... and you (the impersonal You) could keep any extra weight over 220-230.

If I had to make a Middle weight it would look like Monzon: Big, but Rangy, with reach, wiry more than dense... Instead of iron pistons like Tyson or Liston, wound iron cords knotted... Julian Jackson, Monzon...

Monzon had the initial advantage in his fights, he had reach and size. If one watches the Griffith fight, the first one at least, one can see just how this advantage plays out against another primo (aged, but still able) Middle weight. Griffith can hit Monzon and does so often, but Monzon can always nullify Griffith, lean on him if need be, and hit him first coming in because of the reach.

[billeau2]

One thing for sure, no ATG had the fierce competition they get around here in fantasy matchups. Whose competition was closest to the fantasy world, would you say? Which middleweight champ had the best prime competition of all time. I believe that may have been Hagler. Leonard and Hearns were dead in their primes when he faced them. Mugabi was awful tough and in his prime too I think. I believe Griffith was slightly past it when he faced Monzon. He started fighting in 1959. The amazing thing is he had an 11 fight winning streak before that fight, and a six fight streak after it. He did this a little past it and not at his prime weight. What a fighter! Not sure about Briscoe and some others. Everything is bound to come up.

Speaking of Griffith, his resume could be the most studded ever, outside of perhaps Langford. Like Robinson, he fought world class fighters right out of the gate of his career.

Everyone knows Valdez was real good, but not an ATG. He would never hurt your roster but only build it. When a good deal of a man's early fights take place in boxing backwaters there is always a large unknown. But what Monzon did to real competition speaks for itself. He could never be less than 5th among AT middleweights IMO opinion as of now.

Briscoe was straight outta Philly! Take Frazier and shrink him a bit... Excellent fighter.

Oh by the way Doctor Z: If we are ever of the inclination to call Benny ***ish... I suggest we slightly change his name from Benny Briscoe to Benny Brisket!

[billeau2]

Anyone... How would a hagler Monzon fight look?

[Slugfester]

Monzon fights his fight. He doesn't allow anyone to dictate. He keeps that sword distance much of the time that Bill talks about. I think Griffith was pretty well dominated the whole way in their first fight, which I watched today. Griffith was never known for a big punch. Swarmer. Poor KO ratio. His punches were moving Monzon's head though. Probably because they were often charging punches whenever he managed to land. Monzon rolls and turns his head to minimize a lot of shots. Griffith no real danger to him. Maybe a perfect opponent, a worthy opponent as opponents go--energetic, well known, rated--but just a good 14 round workout all the way. I can't actually give Emile any rounds, or score any rounds level other than maybe the first..For one thing the Monzon jab is too constant.

[QueensburyRules]

- - Monzon #1 Middle, so U genii really arguing over the leftover ratings…

[DooGee#33]

I understand the point. SRR was a blown-up WW so I would agree Monzon could probably beat him to death with that vicious overhand right of his.

Hagler on the other hand would be stronger than SRR and Monzon wouldn't be able to push him around once he got in close.

I still think Monzon would beat both, but a Hagler fight would be more difficult.

Just my two cents.

There were a couple versions of Robinson as a middleweight. Pre- retirement and after he comeback from dancing for a couple of years.

My own view is that after he comeback a fight with Monzon would probably be 55% Monzon 45% Robinson. Carlos was a stand up fighter and Ray didn't have trouble with that style. Sugar Ray could punch even into his late 30s.

Robinson from 1949-52 was the best middleweight I've seen on video or film. He would dance, stick and move. Monzon wouldn't do well. Probably gets stopped. The 2nd Randy Turpin fight being my best example.

[Slugfester]

Robinson's dancing was mediocre at best. Strictly a novelty. I don't think people would ever come back for a second helping. Marciano doing ballet would be more entertaining.

[DooGee#33]

Robinson's dancing was mediocre at best. Strictly a novelty. I don't think people would ever come back for a second helping. Marciano doing ballet would be more entertaining.

Marciano in a ballet is a disturbing thought.