If Jeannette Had Fought And Beaten Johnson In1912?

[Willie Pep 229]

Johnson went into training, and he posted a cash bond , he then travelled to NY ,what evidence do you have to suggest that he did not think the fight would happen?
Jeannette, McKetrick ,and the McMahon's thought it would .What inside information did Johnson possess that told him the fight would not take place?

Some seem to willfully want to believe Johnson had no intention of going through with the fight,yet never produce any proof to substantiate that?

Could you not see I was trying to do just that by examing both sides? The first half of my orignial post was all about why we should think it was for real.

You shouldn't judge me ONLY by what I am forced to reply, to protect myself from that person. I said much more on the topic.

This over use on this forum of the word 'proof' is a distraction.

Nine-tenths of historical study is based on conjectures brought about by the examination of a preponderance of circumstances, repeated behaviors, and outcomes.

What proof can exist except Johnson saying it out loud and then we look at that and realize we must doubt it as well.

When the only "insight" one can muster is a literal restatement of some quote, that is not historical evaluation, and opens the door for the reader to be duped.

E. e. Did Donald Trump try to unravel the American republic for his own gain?

If we try to answer that question with mere facts (which are often referred to as evidence on this forum) is it going to get us to the truth. I doubt it.

I never made a statement that he did or didn't believe he fight was going to happen I tried to exam both sides.

I thought you would see that; I knew I would get attacked by the History-Lite people, but I expected you to see what I was trying to do.

[Ivich]

could you not see i was trying to do just that by examing both sides? The first half of my orignial post was all about why we should think it was for real.

You shouldn't judge me only by what i am forced to reply, to protect myself from that person. I said much more on the topic.

This over use on this forum of the word 'proof' is a distraction.

Nine-tenths of historical study is based on conjectures brought about by the examination of a preponderance of circumstances, repeated behaviors, and outcomes.

What proof can exist except johnson saying it out loud and then we look at that and realize we must doubt it as well.

When the only "insight" one can muster is a literal restatement of some quote, that is not historical evaluation, and opens the door for the reader to be duped.

E. E. Did donald trump try to unravel the american republic for his own gain?

If we try to answer that question with mere facts (which are often referred to as evidence on this forum) is it going to get us to the truth. I doubt it.

I never made a statement that he did or didn't bieve the fight was going to happen i tried to exam both sides.

I thought you would see that; i knew i would get attacked by the history-lite people, but i expected you to see what i was trying to do.

do you see your name in my post? Relax!

[Willie Pep 229]

do you see your name in my post? Relax!

Only that it was addressed to me. So should in future not make that assumption?

Actually, yea I probably should have considering what you once said.

[Ivich]

Only that it was addressed to me. So should in future not make that assumption?

Actually, yea I probably should have considering what you once said.

I'm sorry you thought I was having a pop,perhaps I should have been clearer?

[Dr. Z]

- - I ain’t the one slugging down FrenchFried Slugs, YOU are.

Not to mention regurgitating what everyone on this forum already knows as you was some kinda genii…snickers…

He asked me of the offers to Johnson and I stated them. Yet the bugger accuses others and ignores Johnson for not making the fights! What a joke.

No fights for Joshson with or without him signing these contacts ...In the USA, France or the UK.

He absolutely had no problem making it in France or the UK and paying customers!

In fact the promoters blasted Johnson! And he backed out of a signed deal to meet Langford. Do I need to post that too?

All of the above are facts as Ivich continues to move goalposts in a lame effort to get one thing right.

He is free entertainment, not to be taken seriously.

[Ivich]

he asked me of the offers to johnson and i stated them. Yet the bugger accuses others and ignores johnson for not making the fights! What a joke.

No fights for joshson with or without him signing these contacts ...in the usa, france or the uk.

He absolutely had no problem making it in france or the uk and paying customers!

In fact the promoters blasted johnson! And he backed out of a signed deal to meet langford. Do i need to post that too?

All of the above are facts as ivich continues to move goalposts in a lame effort to get one thing right.

he is free entertainment, not to be taken seriously.

.Produce the dates,the venues,the promoters ,and the purses for these offers?

I've been asking you for this information for a good 10 years now and have never gotten an answer !

[Willie Pep 229]

He asked me of the offers to Johnson and I stated them. Yet the bugger accuses others and ignores Johnson for not making the fights! What a joke.

No fights for Joshson with or without him signing these contacts ...In the USA, France or the UK.

He absolutely had no problem making it in France or the UK and paying customers!

In fact the promoters blasted Johnson! And he backed out of a signed deal to meet Langford. Do I need to post that too?

All of the above are facts as Ivich continues to move goalposts in a lame effort to get one thing right.

He is free entertainment, not to be taken seriously.

No UK fight. They, the Brits are, and have been, America's half-a-bitch for some time now. Even before WWI they found themselves depended on our food stuffs and timber.

Dispite pressure from our AG Office they refused to take Johnson into custody, just as Canada refused, but they also insisted JJ keep moving, as Canada did. There were no opportunities for JJ to fight in the UK once the Mann Act conviction.

Johnson's earlier 'back out' of the Langford fight in the UK, in 1908-'09 was because as newly crowned HW champion, the British Athletic Club's offer was now too low. You have to respect JJ's 'back-out,' that's understandable, that goes with the newly won title, no matter if white, black, here, or there.

Once you win the title, all contracts get renegotiated, even the personal appearances go up.

But no chance to fight in UK after conviction. It was bad enough the Brits got caught in our internal tariff wars, between manufacturers and farmers, repeadly changing the trade prices of necessary commodities. They didn't need a tussle with the newly elected (and somewhat racist) Wilson administration, who were about to rewrite the tariffs laws yet again, so they, the Brits, ordered JJ to move on.

France on the other hand liked (likes) to thumb its nose at America. (They always foolishly think themselves our equal. At least the Brits recognize their second level status as a world power. The French actually think they're dangerous.)

So JJ could fight, and did fight in France, but they were bust-out fights, i.e. no money.

One fight drew lousy the other saw American agents grab the gate receipts (the French let them.) I always wonder who bullied whom? Or if people were paid off?

But they walked in and took all the money. Cutting off once again Johnson's revenue stream. A deliberate American White Supremacist tactic being used since the Sims Act (Flynn fight). Crossing the pond wasn't going to stop them from a chance to burn JJ.

Johnson would have just one paying fight between July 1912 and Arpil 1915, The Lester fight. Which wasn't big.

It is interesting that the top four best known Black HW Champions (noticed I didn't say great or greatest type words, I don't want to go there.)

But the four 'best known' Black HW Champions, all, for one reason or another, had the prime-prime years taken from them. **

As I stated above JJ got one small gate over three years. Louis missed out on almost four, Ali on three and Tyson on three.

** When I say prime-prime, what I mean: those years where they are still young enough to be physically at their best, but now bring with them the gained ring wisdom that only experience can teach. All four had their very best years taken away.

[Ivich]

No UK fight. They, the Brits are, and have been, America's half-a-bitch for some time now. Even before WWI they found themselves depended on our food stuffs and timber.

Dispite pressure from our AG Office they refused to take Johnson into custody, just as Canada refused, but they also insisted JJ keep moving, as Canada did. There were no opportunities for JJ to fight in the UK once the Mann Act conviction.

Johnson's earlier 'back out' of the Langford fight in the UK, in 1908-'09 was because as newly crowned HW champion, the British Athletic Club's offer was now too low. You have to respect JJ's 'back-out,' that's understandable, that goes with the newly won title, no matter if white, black, here, or there.

Once you win the title, all contracts get renegotiated, even the personal appearances go up.

But no chance to fight in UK after conviction. It was bad enough the Brits got caught in our internal tariff wars, between manufacturers and farmers, repeadly changing the trade prices of necessary commodities. They didn't need a tussle with the newly elected (and somewhat racist) Wilson administration, who were about to rewrite the tariffs laws yet again, so they, the Brits, ordered JJ to move on.

France on the other hand liked (likes) to thumb its nose at America. (They always foolishly think themselves are equal. At least the Brits recognize their second level status as a world power. The French actually think they're dangerous.)

So JJ could fight, and did fight in France, but they were bust-out fights, i.e. no money.

One fight drew lousy the other saw American agents grab the gate receipts (the French let them.) I always wonder who bullied whom? Or if people were paid off?

But they walked in and took all the money. Cutting off once again Johnon's revenue stream. A deliberate American White Supremacist tactic being used since the Sims Act (Flynn fight). Crossing the pond wasn't going to stop them from a chance to burn JJ.

Johnson would have just one paying fight between July 1912 and Arpil 1915, The Lester fight. Which wasn't big.

It is interesting that the top four best known Black HW Champions (noticed I didn't say great or greatest type words, I don't want to go there.)

But the four 'best known' Black HW Champions, all, for one reason or another, had the prime-prime years taken from them. **

As I stated above JJ got one small gate over three years. Louis missed out on almost four, Ali on three and Tyson on three.

** When I say prime-prime, what I mean: those years were they are still young enough to be physically at their best, but now bring with them the gained ring wisdom that only experience can teach. All four had their very best years taken away.

You are correct except it was the NSC the National Sporting Club a self appointed body that ruled boxing then. They were well known for *****rdly purses.Johnson signed a contract to fight Langford for a pittance he was now 30years old and had made no money ,not even in his title challenge to Burns.You may say he should have honoured his contract and i would not disagree with you,but at least I think we can see where he was coming from.
Johnson hoped to fight Bombadier Billy Wells for the NSC but they vetoed that proposition.
Langford earned his biggest purse koing Iron Hague for the NSC but that was a mixed race fight.
The desperate for funds Johnson only cleared about $1000 from the Battling Jim fight.

[QueensburyRules]

You are correct except it was the NSC the National Sporting Club a self appointed body that ruled boxing then. They were well known for *****rdly purses.Johnson signed a contract to fight Langford for a pittance he was now 30years old and had made no money ,not even in his title challenge to Burns.You may say he should have honoured his contract and i would not disagree with you,but at least I think we can see where he was coming from.
Johnson hoped to fight Bombadier Billy Wells for the NSC but they vetoed that proposition.
Langford earned his biggest purse koing Iron Hague for the NSC but that was a mixed race fight.
The desperate for funds Johnson only cleared about $1000 from the Battling Jim fight.

- - NSC didn’t rule squat as JJohnson proved.

You have a serious problem as many do in boxing have in not understand the basics of boxing.

[Marchegiano]

- - NSC didn’t rule squat as JJohnson proved.

You have a serious problem as many do in boxing have in not understand the basics of boxing.

Getting a bit caught up with the phrasing and missing the point, in my opinion.

If he had said tried or some such similar, made an effort to, prior to rule, then you wouldn't have this particular gripe and Ivich's point would remain just as it is.