If Jeannette Had Fought And Beaten Johnson In1912?

[Ivich]

If the scheduled title defence of Jack Johnson v Joe Jeannette in NY in September 1912 had been allowed to happen and Jeannette had won,who would he have defended against? Assuming he didn't fight again until1913 who would have been his challenger/challengers? GunBoat Smith had a purple patch of about a year would it have been him?McVey was on a losing streak having won only 1 of his last 5,[ [against Jim Barry,]his 4 losses all coming by way of Langford.
Langford himself was going well apart from a dubious decision loss to Smith.
It should be noted mixed bouts were banned in NY at this time and Jeannette was a big NY favourite ,which is why the McMahon's originally scheduled the Jeannette v Johnson fight for there.
Who do you think would have gotten the call for Joe's first defence? I somehow doubt it would have been Langford.

[Marchegiano]

Jim Johnson, Joe loved to fight old Battling Jimmy.

[kara]

Jim Johnson, Joe loved to fight old Battling Jimmy.

Ivich is really taking us back with some of these.

[Ivich]

Jim Johnson, Joe loved to fight old Battling Jimmy.

And he didn't win them all. That would not have been a big pay day for Jeannette.

[Dr. Z]

If the scheduled title defence of Jack Johnson v Joe Jeannette in NY in September 1912 had been allowed to happen and Jeannette had won,who would he have defended against? Assuming he didn't fight again until1913 who would have been his challenger/challengers? GunBoat Smith had a purple patch of about a year would it have been him?McVey was on a losing streak having won only 1 of his last 5,[ [against Jim Barry,]his 4 losses all coming by way of Langford.
Langford himself was going well apart from a dubious decision loss to Smith.
It should be noted mixed bouts were banned in NY at this time and Jeannette was a big NY favourite ,which is why the McMahon's originally scheduled the Jeannette v Johnson fight for there.
Who do you think would have gotten the call for Joe's first defence? I somehow doubt it would have been Langford.

First off it would be allowed in many USA states, as well as England, France and Australia. All of these areas featured African Americans fighting. Jack Johnson simply would not risk the fight! To assume all offers were bogus and not Johnson's fault for making this fight is assine.


As champion Johnson could fight anyone in one of many numerous states and nations.


Jeannette was certainly qualified, as were Langford, Mcvey, Smith , and McCarty. These men were " ducked " and not given title shots from 1909-1915.

They were better than the other men Johnson fought as champion, in their prime, active and denied a shot.

Now, to answer the question Jeanette who was better than draws which O'brein and Jim " battling "Johnson achieved vs. Jack Johnson title shots would likely fight Mcvey, or Wills next. Jeannette lots of quality fighter from 1909 - 1915. See the below link.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Jeanette

[Ivich]

First off it would be allowed in many USA states, as well as England, France and Australia. All of these areas featured African Americans fighting. Jack Johnson simply would not risk the fight! To assume all offers were bogus and not Johnson's fault for making this fight is assine.


As champion Johnson could fight anyone in one of many numerous states and nations.


Jeannette was certainly qualified, as were Langford, Mcvey, Smith , and McCarty. These men were " ducked " and not given title shots from 1909-1915.

They were better than the other men Johnson fought as champion, in their prime, active and denied a shot.

Now, to answer the question Jeanette who was better than draws which O'brein and Jim " battling "Johnson achieved vs. Jack Johnson title shots would likely fight Mcvey, or Wills next. Jeannette lots of quality fighter from 1909 - 1915. See the below link.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Jeanette

Fights are put on where it is thought they will draw the most money.Jeannette was popular in NY but mixed fights were not allowed there at that time.
As champion Johnson could only fight in places in which promoters and boxing commissions were prepared to let him.
He was a fighter not a promoter!
McCarty died on the 24th of May 1913!
MCvey was coming off 4 defeats to Langford ,and he was in Australia from September 1913 until February1914 anyway!

!
It is proven beyond all doubt that Johnson signed to fight Jeannette TWICE and no BS **** from you is going to alter that stone fact!
DO NOT RUIN THIS THREAD BY TURNING IT INTO ANOTHER INTERMINABLE JOHNSON HATE FEST!

GO **** UP YOUR OWN THREADS!

[Dr. Z]

Fights are put on where it is thought they will draw the most money.Jeannette was popular in NY but mixed fights were not allowed there at that time.
As champion Johnson could only fight in places in which promoters and boxing commissions were prepared to let him.
He was a fighter not a promoter!
McCarty died on the 24th of May 1913!
MCvey was coming off 4 defeats to Langford ,and he was in Australia from September 1913 until February1914 anyway!

!
It is proven beyond all doubt that Johnson signed to fight Jeannette TWICE and no BS **** from you is going to alter that stone fact!
DO NOT RUIN THIS THREAD BY TURNING IT INTO ANOTHER INTERMINABLE JOHNSON HATE FEST!

GO **** UP YOUR OWN THREADS!

Imbecile! Yes that means you. Do I have your attention now? Several offers from known promoters offered Jack Johnson $30,000.00, $50,000.00 and $100,000.00 to fight Langford Jeanette and McVey.


They can black seen in black and white in the press. The offers range in time from 1909-1915! Let me know if you want to see them, okay?


Now as I told you Johnson pulled out of a signed contract to meet Sam Langford. The ducker never wanted to fight him from 1909-1915, even though the fights were in demand in France, Australia, England and parts of the USA! All over the world.


Joe Jeanette was equally avoided and said, "Jack forgot about his old friends after he became champion and drew the color line against his own people." Jeannette continued to fight until his retirement in 1919 at the age of 40.


Johnson only signed a contact with Jeanette when he was sure the fight could not happen in a certain area. No problem there are several other venues in cities that would gladly accept the patronage for a big fight. Just the facts,


Now will you STFU ? You are clearly biased and do not even follow your own double standards. Go ahead and switch your reply up to other fighters that do not have anything to do with this thread. That is your modus operandi. It's not an accident that you have had several arguments beyond boxing other people on this forum. Be gone.

[Ivich]

Imbecile! Yes that means you. Do I have your attention now? Several offers from known promoters offered Jack Johnson $30,000.00, $50,000.00 and $100,000.00 to fight Langford Jeanette and McVey.


They can black seen in black and white in the press. The offers range in time from 1909-1915! Let me know if you want to see them, okay?


Now as I told you Johnson pulled out of a signed contract to meet Sam Langford. The ducker never wanted to fight him from 1909-1915, even though the fights were in demand in France, Australia, England and parts of the USA! All over the world.


Joe Jeanette was equally avoided and said, "Jack forgot about his old friends after he became champion and drew the color line against his own people." Jeannette continued to fight until his retirement in 1919 at the age of 40.


Johnson only signed a contact with Jeanette when he was sure the fight could not happen in a certain area. No problem there are several other venues in cities that would gladly accept the patronage for a big fight. Just the facts,


Now will you STFU ? You are clearly biased and do not even follow your own double standards. Go ahead and switch your reply up to other fighters that do not have anything to do with this thread. That is your modus operandi. It's not an accident that you have had several arguments beyond boxing other people on this forum. Be gone.

Explain why Johnson and Jeannette would post cash bonds for their fight,and travel to NY for the fight?

Explain why the promoters would book an arena and go to the trouble and expense of having posters printed advertising the fight?

Explain why only Johnson, by some secret means, knew the fight would not happen?

Explain why Jeannette made a public statement to the press absolvingJohnson from any blame for the fight not happening?

Explain why Adam Pollack would diligently research Johnsons career and state categorically that he signed to defend against Jeannette twice and the reason the fights did not happen was because of the NYAC?

Explain away the promoters and the NYAC's public statements that prove the NYAC vetoed the fight and Johnson had no knowledge they would do so?

Explain why Johnson signed to fight both McVey and Langford in Australia only to have the promoter pull the fights when public opinion swung against Johnson?

Explain McIntosh's public statement confirming it was Australian public opinion that forced him to cancel the fights?

NOW POST THESE OFFERS OF $30,000,$50,000 AND $100,000 THAT JOHNSON TURNED DOWN
AND IN RETURN I WILL POST THE OFFERS FROM THE MCMAHON BOTHERS TO DEFEND AGAINST JEANNETTE THAT HE ACCEPTED.

AND THE TWO FIGHT DEAL TO FIGHT BOTH LANGFORD AND MCVEY FOR MCINTOSH THAT HE ALSO ACCEPTED!
Explain the relevance of all your phobic posts when the subject of the thread is as follows?
If Jeannette Had Fought And Beaten Johnson In1912?


You are mentally ill!

[Willie Pep 229]

Explain why Johnson and Jeannette would post cash bonds for their fight,and travel to NY for the fight?

Explain why the promoters would book an arena an go to the trouble and expense of having posters printed advertising the fight?

Explain why only Johnson, by some secret means knew the fight would not happen?

Explain why Jeannette made a public statement to the press absolvingJohnson from any blame for the fight not happening?

Explain why Adam Pollack would diligently research Johnsons career and state categorically that he signed to defend against Jeannette twice and the reason the fights did not happen was because of the NYAC?

Explain away the promoters and the NYAC's public statements that prove the NYAC vetoed the fight and Johnson had no knowledge they would do so?

Explain why Johnson signed to fight both McVey and Langford in Australia only to have the promoter pull the fights when public opinion swung against Johnson?

Explain McIntosh's public statement confirming it was Australian public opinion that forced him to cancel the fights?

NOW POST THESE OFFERS OF $30,000,$50,000 AND $100,000 THAT JOHNSON TURNED DOWN
AND IN RETURN I WILL POST THE OFFERS FROM THE MCMAHON BOTHERSTO DEFEND AGAINST JEANNETTE THAT HE ACCEPTED

AND THE TWO FIGHT DEAL TO FIGHT BOTH LANGFORD AND MCVEY FOR MCINTOSH THAT HE ACCEPTED!
Explain the relevance of all your phobic posts when the subject of the thread is as follows?
If Jeannette Had Fought And Beaten Johnson In1912?


You are mentally ill!

What I see (limited view) the fight looks legit.

The numbers I see are 25K gurantee for JJ (no knowledge of Jeannette's end) with 50% of the gate for the first 50K, and then a lower % for anything over that.

I would say the money was there.

Most importantly was that McMahon had set the verbage correctly to sneak it under the Frawley Law (1911) The fight was to be hosted by the St. Nicholas Athletic Club.

Fighters were introduced to the crowd as "club members" it was a private club event not a for profit event regulated by the City or State.

This had worked at the St. Nicholas Athletic Club since 1906 (according to Wikipedia) under the Horton/Lewis Laws and with the Frawley Law since 1911.

So there was a venue.

So the ducks were in order.

1. I think considering the amount of planning and the MULTIPLE news entries we should conclude Johnson was acting in good faith.

2. Something else happened that crushed the fight. But that will take some digging into to understand.

• A. Just how far along were the White Supremacists in 1912, both in Congress and the AG's Office.
• B. When, and how sour, did JJ make the milk with his 'miscegenation' adventure with Lucile Cameron?

NOW let's argue against Johnson's sincerity.

In May of 1912 the White Supremacists on the Congressional floor were bragging that they had already banned the "Negro" in every State and the Flynn fight ended up dumped in the brand new State of New Mexico (West Las Vegas, NM.)

It was a big coup for the haters and they next moved to cut off JJ's last big revenue stream, film. They passed the Sims Law that July 31, 1912.

So why am I reading a NYT article dated August 14th 1912 about a pending/possible New York fight between JJ and Jeannette when every State has already said no to a JJ fight?

Here's a compromise conclusion.

Johnson was acting in good faith but knew the fight was unlikely to happen.

Did JJ think the St. Nicholas "Club fight" disguise would be enough to get the fight done? It had before?

Did JJ assume the Whites wouldn't interfere with a black on black fight?

Or had JJ so soured the waters that the officials wouldn't except the usual fig-leaf disguise?

Or both? Complicated.

[EDIT] To be clear, I am saying New York had already said no to a Johnson fight in early 1912, before McMhon tried the Athletic Club move.

If you think that incorrect let me know. But I think that timing is relevant and I am uncertain of New York's 'official' "no" to Johnson for the Flynn fight. Was there one? What date?

Complicated to assess intent isn't it?

[travestyny]

What I see (limited view) the fight looks legit.

The numbers I see are 25K gurantee for JJ (no knowledge of Jeannette's end) with 50% of the gate for the first 50K, and then a lower % for anything over that.

I would say the money was there.

Most importantly was that McMahon had set the verbage correctly to sneak it under the Frawley Law (1911) The fight was to be hosted by the St. Nicholas Athletic Club.

Fighters were introduced to the crowd as "club members" it was a private club event not a for profit event regulated by the City or State.

This had worked at the St. Nicholas Athletic Club since 1906 (according to Wikipedia) under the Horton/Lewis Laws and with the Frawley Law since 1911.

So there was a venue.

So the ducks were in order.

1. I think considering the amount of planning and the MULTIPLE news entries we should conclude Johnson was acting in good faith.

2. Something else happened that crushed the fight. But that will take some digging into to understand.

• A. Just how far along were the White Supremacists in 1912, both in Congress and the AG's Office.
• B. When, and how sour, did JJ make the milk with his 'miscegenation' adventure with Lucile Cameron?

NOW let's argue against Johnson's sincerity.

In May of 1912 the White Supremacists on the Congressional floor were bragging that they had already banned the "Negro" in every State and the Flynn fight ended up dumped in the brand new State of New Mexico (West Las Vegas, NM.)

It was a big coup for the haters and they next moved to cut off JJ's last big revenue stream, film. They passed the Sims Law that July 31, 1912.

So why am I reading a NYT article dated August 14th 1912 about a pending/possible New York fight between JJ and Jeannette when every State has already said no to a JJ fight?

Here's a compromise conclusion.

Johnson was acting in good faith but knew the fight was unlikely to happen.

Did JJ think the St. Nicholas "Club fight" disguise would be enough to get the fight done? It had before?

Did JJ assume the Whites wouldn't interfere with a black on black fight?

Or had JJ so soured the waters that the officials wouldn't except the usual fig-leaf disguise?

Or both? Complicated.

[EDIT] To be clear, I am saying New York had already said no to a Johnson fight in early 1912, before McMhon tried the Athletic Club move.

If you think that incorrect let me know. But I think that timing is relevant and I am uncertain of New York's 'official' "no" to Johnson for the Flynn fight. Was there one? What date?

Complicated to assess intent isn't it?

You're leaving out something important.


Everyone involved (Johnson himself, Jeannette and his people, the promoters, other promoters and venues [MSG]) believed that the Johnson Jeannette fight would be allowed because they were both Black.