How Did Tyson Fury succeed where Muhammad Ali failed?

[Willow The Wisp]

Muhammad Ali nicknamed the smaller Floyd Patterson "The Rabbit" and gave him a savage beatdown that ended in 12th round TKO.

Tyson Fury has now nicknamed the smaller Usyk "The Rabbit"... will Fury finish him in a similar fashion, or will The Ukrainian Rabbit shock the world?

Great observation. The white rabbit is getting what Patterson got, and history will repeat.

[max baer]

Great observation. The white rabbit is getting what Patterson got, and history will repeat.

i hope fury wins and its at wembley stadium that'd be such a good piss up night out.

[max baer]

Say, thanks for saying so Nathan. That's a really friendly thing to say. Allot of bickering on these boards sometimes as a natural part of discussion, and it's complimentary statements such as yours that allows a board to retain types looking for something outside of unleashing their keyboarding warrior. Appreciate it.

[max baer]

the problem with me is that because i am a mate of fury (not a mate like drinking buddies but like i helped him out and when he was down by sharing how i deal with depression and he showed me the correct path in how to deal with life and be bold and our paths have crossed over the years and from time to time we met and wished each other well on the way and I told him he could be heavyweight champion of the world at 14 then i saw him a few years later on the tube and he was like built like ivan drago must have been about 18 and i wished him luck to become heavyweight champion. i told him i pity the poor bloke who has to fight you. when he was very depressed he visited me and i prefer to write then to talk as with everyone even family i can express myself well writing but terribly orating. so i gave fury the hello hows things then i wrote to him. I like to help people. it is like when i help people that i admire i feel so good like ive made someones life better that i looked to with admiration and its the best feeling. im not after anything in return i just feel good when i am able to help make people happier especially people that i am a fan of that dont know i admire them it is like a way of saying "hi there i am a good fan of yours and wanted to help to say hello". Thing with fury is that on the night of his fights i get so f***ING anxious i cant sit still i am a bag of nerves for him as I want him to win so badly. I have such admiration for him and I cant relax. Sometimes I need to drink just to calm down. With other fights i can enjoy it and go with the blows but with fury i get so edgy and nervous i just think please mate do what you need to do and i just feel afterw that i have been on some weeklong adventure and need to rest a long time thats how it feels. one thing with fury where he is just like ali is that if the whole world said a certain path is the way to save us and he felt the other path was the right one he would go his path and only after would the world say "**** he was right i see it now!" like ali told the interviewer after the rope a dope he revealed what he done and everyone realised or when he knocked liston out in their second fight the anchor punch he had practiced and practiced and nearly gave it away in build up interviews when his trainer stopped him telling anyone about his plan to blitz liston when liston was not expecting that and fury is the same he has the mind of a king, I liken him to a young henry the 8th like as a young man he was great at all sports and strong and i just hope fury doesnt end up with 6 wifes!
he is like a medievil king. Or like hamish in braveheart!
one other thing i have seen in life is that i am very spiritual and i believe that some people have older souls they just seem to be too wise for their age. look at noel gallagher when other kids were ****ting their shorts he was writing songs and learning guitar and knew his path was to be a rock star and he must have an old soul. i first met noel at pontins in blackpool aged 9 and then again a few times in our school summer holidays in dublin as we both are from irish parents and love ireland. Noel just had a mind that was too advanced for his years it is spooky and it really really frightened me. Fury is similar he achieved all a man desires before he was even 28 and seems to exude a confidence that men just dont have. you see it is some people and it is very strange gets me wondering about our souls and spiritual stuff.
Thats the story. i am saying this mainly to explain to old mates who read this at some point who wonder how i know fury.
one thing i found today, i wish tommy fury all the best
joe rogan discussing tommy fury
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbPl9Sc57co
what these guys havent noticed is that they have that dad of theirs big john fury and he is the ultimate trainer, if anyone doesn't know the knowledge of big john fury they are missing the point entirely/

watch this fury and big john fury !!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RcgrMb309o

[Willie Pep 229]

watch this fury and big john fury !!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RcgrMb309o

History section !

[Willow The Wisp]

History section !

He can be forgiven for mistakenly thinking this was the pointless minutia argument section.

[Hooded Terror]

I dunno man, I've read Frazier was next to Nothing here lately. As for the murderious punching Wilder, You are dead wrong about that, but I knew that was coming, lol. I'm looking forward to what Wilder does next. Fury can get over on him but has to keep getting up off the ground to do it. The recent vintage Other than that? Lewis and Wladimir would get hit harder than they ever have been hit almost certainly; and for all their laudable attributes and accomplishments, they wouldn't like it one bit. Bowe would outbox Wilder, taste that power and quit like he did in the Marines. Holyfield had great heart but only a good chin, which would place him on the train tracks like never before; and Joshua would get laid out flat, too chinny; and Usyk? Jury's still out on him. Waiting to see what he's made of beyond Chazz & Chisora level, Cruiserweights and and having Joshua's number, which every other opponent Joshua faces these days has. Frazier and Wilder share the distinction of being second best of their era by only a wisper.

I'm not so sure about any of that. Footwork goes a long way, angles too, when timing windmills.
Holyfield only had a great chin?
Bowe would just up and quit?
Lewis and Wlad getting hit harder than there ever have been is guesswork. Both hit harder than what Wilder has ever experienced, and both are of a higher predigree.
Joshua has never been laid out. Not yet, anyway. And no, every other opponent does not have Joshua's number. His story is still being written and you are far too dismissive.
Usyk? He is no classic cruiserweight. He's a heavyweight facing super heavyweights. His footwork, angles, ring generalship, conditioning and predigree make him a threat to any heavyweight in history. His showings against Joshua were brilliant, especially considering the fact he is aging. Again, you are being dismissive.
If we are gonna label todays fighters then lets let them finish-out their careers. Blitzing a shell of Robert Helenius in under 3 minutes does not signify the truth of what is Deontay Wilder today. Put him in with a studied hungry contender and you may suddenly see his age and mileage play-out. Be happy others aren't as dismissive of Wilder, especially based on his two KO losses, as you seem to be with all of the aforementioned.

[Willow The Wisp]

I'm not so sure about any of that. Footwork goes a long way, angles too, when timing windmills.
Holyfield only had a great chin?
Bowe would just up and quit?
Lewis and Wlad getting hit harder than there ever have been is guesswork. Both hit harder than what Wilder has ever experienced, and both are of a higher predigree.
Joshua has never been laid out. Not yet, anyway. And no, every other opponent does not have Joshua's number. His story is still being written and you are far too dismissive.
Usyk? He is no classic cruiserweight. He's a heavyweight facing super heavyweights. His footwork, angles, ring generalship, conditioning and predigree make him a threat to any heavyweight in history. His showings against Joshua were brilliant, especially considering the fact he is aging. Again, you are being dismissive.
If we are gonna label todays fighters then lets let them finish-out their careers. Blitzing a shell of Robert Helenius in under 3 minutes does not signify the truth of what is Deontay Wilder today. Put him in with a studied hungry contender and you may suddenly see his age and mileage play-out. Be happy others aren't as dismissive of Wilder, especially based on his two KO losses, as you seem to be with all of the aforementioned.

These are good counterpoints to my statements. You begin by stating that you are "not so sure about any of that", so I should attempt to ensure you. But of course, I can only do so much in that undertaking, and have no desire to make you believe what you would prefer not to believe.

The hard sell I detect is that you don't respect Deontay Wilder an aweful lot. If you want to see "Windmills", you ought to check out Dave Feldman's Bare Knuckle Fighting Championship shows. By significant contrast, Deontay Wilder is a stealthily skilled Olympic medalist whose punches have found the mark every time he's fought as a professional, or to be accurate, 45 of his 46 bouts, 4 of those against another of the best half dozen heavyweights in the world (at the time Wilder fought them) in Fury and Ortiz.
With a considerably higher KO ratio than George Foreman, Earnie Shavers, Sonny Liston, Gerry Cooney, Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis and Cleveland Williams while living as one of the 3 top heavyweights for 8 years and stying busy, Wilder's windmills seem to have a mind of their own. They somehow find their target. Even against Tyson Fury.

"Holyfield only had a great chin?". Actually, I said he had a great heart and a good chin.
I'd call what I said pretty high praise for any 27-10-2 heavyweight, even the beloved Evander.

"Bowe would just up and quit?" Well, ya I think he would (or....might). And What's with this revisionist Bowe love? Not you per se but many. If you think Wilder has detractors, you should have been around ringside when Bowe was working on his Leon Spinks impression! Past prime Pinklon Thomas, Ty Biggs, Tony Tubbs, Bert Cooper, Bazooka Brown & Michael Dokes? Great wins if done in the 80s, but Rock Newman got those names for Bowe in the 90's. Not so amazing. After that you've got Art Tucker, Bruce Seldon, Pierre Coetzer, Larry Donald, Herbie Hide and Jose Luis Gonzalez. Now that's a fine body of work facing the challengers available, and the tremendous Bowe-Holyfield trilogy, and Bowe was indeed an "Elite" heavyweight. But it was followed only by TWO consecutive beatings at the hands of Andrew Golota, credited as losses or otherwise, while Bowe was still young and in his prime. Had it been a more focused and hard hitting Wilder in there, it would have (might have) been No Mas with that scull-a-crackin'.

"Lewis and Wlad getting hit harder than there ever have been is guesswork. Both hit harder than what Wilder has ever experienced, and both are of a higher predigree".

Well this is ALL guesswork. Fight odds, fantasy fights, winner prognostication, rankings; it's guesswork.
That "Both hit harder than what Wilder has ever experienced" is sure as heck more guesswork than saying that Wilder hits alot harder than Oliver McCall, Hasim Rahman, Ross Puritty, Corrie Sanders, Lamon Brewster and Anthony Joshua ever did.

Whatever one defins as pedigree, Wilder is a long term WBC champion with a LONG string of titles defenses, all won by Knockout; and whatever Lewis and Wladimir are beyond that is just a matter of taste.

"Joshua has never been laid out. Not yet, anyway. And no, every other opponent does not have Joshua's number. His story is still being written and you are far too dismissive".

It's true, I am indeed being far too dismissive of A.J. (a popular way of thinking these days by the armchair crowd), and I wish to make amends. Joshua is a successful comeback run away from being Hall-of-Fame worthy. Some won't agree but they're wrong. Like Ali, Holmes, Tyson, Lewis, Klitschko and Wilder; Joshua had a string of title fights won in defense of his claim. I was dealing strictly in hyperbole.

"Usyk? He is no classic cruiserweight. He's a heavyweight facing super heavyweights. His footwork, angles, ring generalship, conditioning and predigree make him a threat to any heavyweight in history. His showings against Joshua were brilliant, especially considering the fact he is aging. Again, you are being dismissive".

Nobody can question the ability of Oleksandr Usyk. What I’d like to see from him is....more.
If he beats Fury (and many give him a good shot at it), he will join the short list of greatest 21st century heavyweights; but I'll wait for that before I anoint him as one.
For me, beating Glowacki, Hunter, Huck, Gassiev and Briedis (by a hair), two nods over A.J. and a struggle with Del Boy Chisora reminiscent of what Robert Helenius did, is simply a beginning if one is to become "a threat to any heavyweight in history". But that's just me.

"Blitzing a shell of Robert Helenius in under 3 minutes does not signify the truth of what is Deontay Wilder today".

Thats dismissive too.
To be fair, long time Fringe contender Helenius was coming off the two biggest wins of his career heading into the woodchipper.

"I've been posting here awhile and I've gotta admit, you've handed me my ass here. I was thinking about it all wrong, and hey; thank you!"

Oh, wait, that wasn't you. That was Nobody, Ever.

Thank you for reading my drivel brother, appreciate it.

[juggernaut666]

Fury only defended the title 3 times and wilder has defeated his own sparring partner since losing to Fury . Neither of those guys is doing much , one’s talking about Ngannou a non boxer and the other is still avoiding a undisputed fight AGAIN and or dragging it out because he wants money he’s not worth . Lol

[Hooded Terror]

These are good counterpoints to my statements. You begin by stating that you are "not so sure about any of that", so I should attempt to ensure you. But of course, I can only do so much in that undertaking, and have no desire to make you believe what you would prefer not to believe.

The hard sell I detect is that you don't respect Deontay Wilder an aweful lot. If you want to see "Windmills", you ought to check out Dave Feldman's Bare Knuckle Fighting Championship shows. By significant contrast, Deontay Wilder is a stealthily skilled Olympic medalist whose punches have found the mark every time he's fought as a professional, or to be accurate, 45 of his 46 bouts, 4 of those against another of the best half dozen heavyweights in the world (at the time Wilder fought them) in Fury and Ortiz.
With a considerably higher KO ratio than George Foreman, Earnie Shavers, Sonny Liston, Gerry Cooney, Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis and Cleveland Williams while living as one of the 3 top heavyweights for 8 years and stying busy, Wilder's windmills seem to have a mind of their own. They somehow find their target. Even against Tyson Fury.

"Holyfield only had a great chin?". Actually, I said he had a great heart and a good chin.
I'd call what I said pretty high praise for any 27-10-2 heavyweight, even the beloved Evander.

"Bowe would just up and quit?" Well, ya I think he would (or....might). And What's with this revisionist Bowe love? Not you per se but many. If you think Wilder has detractors, you should have been around ringside when Bowe was working on his Leon Spinks impression! Past prime Pinklon Thomas, Ty Biggs, Tony Tubbs, Bert Cooper, Bazooka Brown & Michael Dokes? Great wins if done in the 80s, but Rock Newman got those names for Bowe in the 90's. Not so amazing. After that you've got Art Tucker, Bruce Seldon, Pierre Coetzer, Larry Donald, Herbie Hide and Jose Luis Gonzalez. Now that's a fine body of work facing the challengers available, and the tremendous Bowe-Holyfield trilogy, and Bowe was indeed an "Elite" heavyweight. But it was followed only by TWO consecutive beatings at the hands of Andrew Golota, credited as losses or otherwise, while Bowe was still young and in his prime. Had it been a more focused and hard hitting Wilder in there, it would have (might have) been No Mas with that scull-a-crackin'.

"Lewis and Wlad getting hit harder than there ever have been is guesswork. Both hit harder than what Wilder has ever experienced, and both are of a higher predigree".

Well this is ALL guesswork. Fight odds, fantasy fights, winner prognostication, rankings; it's guesswork.
That "Both hit harder than what Wilder has ever experienced" is sure as heck more guesswork than saying that Wilder hits alot harder than Oliver McCall, Hasim Rahman, Ross Puritty, Corrie Sanders, Lamon Brewster and Anthony Joshua ever did.

Whatever one defins as pedigree, Wilder is a long term WBC champion with a LONG string of titles defenses, all won by Knockout; and whatever Lewis and Wladimir are beyond that is just a matter of taste.

"Joshua has never been laid out. Not yet, anyway. And no, every other opponent does not have Joshua's number. His story is still being written and you are far too dismissive".

It's true, I am indeed being far too dismissive of A.J. (a popular way of thinking these days by the armchair crowd), and I wish to make amends. Joshua is a successful comeback run away from being Hall-of-Fame worthy. Some won't agree but they're wrong. Like Ali, Holmes, Tyson, Lewis, Klitschko and Wilder; Joshua had a string of title fights won in defense of his claim. I was dealing strictly in hyperbole.

"Usyk? He is no classic cruiserweight. He's a heavyweight facing super heavyweights. His footwork, angles, ring generalship, conditioning and predigree make him a threat to any heavyweight in history. His showings against Joshua were brilliant, especially considering the fact he is aging. Again, you are being dismissive".

Nobody can question the ability of Oleksandr Usyk. What I’d like to see from him is....more.
If he beats Fury (and many give him a good shot at it), he will join the short list of greatest 21st century heavyweights; but I'll wait for that before I anoint him as one.
For me, beating Glowacki, Hunter, Huck, Gassiev and Briedis (by a hair), two nods over A.J. and a struggle with Del Boy Chisora reminiscent of what Robert Helenius did, is simply a beginning if one is to become "a threat to any heavyweight in history". But that's just me.

"Blitzing a shell of Robert Helenius in under 3 minutes does not signify the truth of what is Deontay Wilder today".

Thats dismissive too.
To be fair, long time Fringe contender Helenius was coming off the two biggest wins of his career heading into the woodchipper.

"I've been posting here awhile and I've gotta admit, you've handed me my ass here. I was thinking about it all wrong, and hey; thank you!"

Oh, wait, that wasn't you. That was Nobody, Ever.

Thank you for reading my drivel brother, appreciate it.

Brother, and I say that in the most sincere and appreciative way - your counter-points are the most well laid-out and presented, dating back to about 1996 on the internet. For that and your well thought-out effort, I tip my hat to you. If in any way your handed me some of my ass, I like to think its really only one cheek.

Lets correct a possible impression I appear to have given you. I am a HUGE Deontay Wilder fan. And yes, his windmill approach has been extremely effective, and profitable. His 5-year reign was terrific, and for all of Fury's skill, Wilder has floored him without a doubt, an obscene number of times.

I'll concede Wilder's wild swinging approach may have been effective early with Dr. Steelhammer, given my unwavering stance that Wlad could be pressured into unravelling, especially early. Wilder would need to flummox Wlad early, before the younger Klitschko could control the distance and cadence of the match.

Lenny on the other hand could be sharp as a fox with his left jab and a straight right a quarter second behind it. I tend to believe Lewis had a better stance and fundamental approach, but he'd have to be the guy he needed to be for Holyfield, the guy he wanted to be for Bowe; the cat we saw in the Rahman rematch.

Holyfield, IMO, peaked around or just before the Douglas match. It would need to be the calculating, sharp-boxing, mobile Evander of 1988-1990, the one with the sharp, well-timed and executed counters, not the tough-guy he later became facing older, slower and larger foes. It speaks to the fumes in Holyfield's tank, that he was able to defeat cats like Ruiz and Rahman at such a late date, years beyond his expiry.

Rid**** Bowe? OK, my pants were down a few inches on that one. The up-and-coming Bowe, say to 1990, may have been the best of Bowe. A commited Bowe was akin to spotting a Sasquatch, and kidding around aside, it was Lenny who did all of the heavy lifting with big hitters, not Rid****. Bowe's amateur predigree suggests better boxing fundamentals, but probablity and the law of averages suggests you may well be right. It would be interesting to see the one-two Bowe suckered Larry Donald with actually land square on Wilder. At the very least I believe Wilder explodes with return fire.

I too need to see more of Usyk. Its my belief his command of angles and footwork would be the key to a mostly in and out game of cat and mouse, but would he come out on top?

And AJ.

I have to hand AJ credit. He took his first loss surprisingly well. But looking back to the days of Joe Louis, I sometimes see AJ moving in clunky fashion much like the giants The Brown Bomber so thoroughly disassembled. Athletically clunky, if that makes any sense. There's a certain natural, putting-it-all-together fluidity AJ seems to be missing, especially in a fight, since that desperation moment in the 11th with Klitschko. Today he's too cerebral and such is not how you proceed with an alley cat such as Wilder. In my heart of hearts, the Wilder of 2018 would lick him with surprising brevity, but the Wilder of 2023, dents and all???? AJ of 2023.......I'd like to say it can only get better, but I wouldn't bet a dime on it.

Wanna hear a crazy one? Something deep inside me screams that Fury/Wilder IV sees Wilder starch Tyson. And correct me if I'm wrong. Its been mostly short or inside non-windmill Wilder shots that have dropped Fury, correct?

Looking forward to your next response. Class act.