Wilder versus Marciano who wins?

[Rosco3387]

Before the Helenius fight I posted the fight would tell us what Wilder had got left.
I was wrong, it told us nothing.

Helenius went down and out from a shot that did not look that devastating,obviously the fact that he was coming forward into the punch and that increased its power, but still.

I didn't like Helenius' body language going into this fight ,he looked nervous and not confident.

We need Wilder against a better test to assess what he has left imo.

The guy who impressed me on that bill was Frank Sanchez,he can box and appears to have a bit more snap on his shots now.

perhaps the signficance was that Wilder finally realized what fighters knew back when men were men and the women were scared lol... come in as light as possible, maintain foot speed and extra weight does not equal extra power. I actually exclaimed "its about time" when he caught the Nordic strongman because Helenius had already made so many lunges, etc... Wilder knows how he should be on fight night and he can thank Helenius for this.

Sanchez has been very talented like so many Cuban exiled fighters of the past. But he has a laziness to him that imo will catch up to him. I am a big fan of the Cuban fighters... Just don't see Sanchez gritting his teeth and doing what needs to be done. He reminds me of Gonzalez when he fought Bowe. I could be wrong of course lol.

[Rosco3387]

[QUOTE=Willow The Wisp;n31611698]

- - Deyonce been shot ever since Blubber dented his noggin' wif eggweights.

Frankie said to be geared up,

[/QUOTE]

Lol, last week's theory. A 1st round blowout of a top 20 (maybe top 15) contender has righted that ship. When was the last time your horse in the race matched that feat? Two years.

Joshua is a fine addendum to the Horizontal History of British Heavyweight History... Did you know that the issue of lewis citizenship was settled by his knockering of Frank Bruno? Bruno proved to be the more traditional Brit heavyweight, Canada could have a piece of Lewis!

Will we get to see Joshua put to sleep by Wilder? Time will tell...

[GhostofDempsey]

The two times Rocky hit the canvas, the knockdowns were set up with a counter by Moore and a lead hook by Walcott. They were more or less flash knockdowns that he got right up from. Does Wilder have the boxing savvy of Moore and Walcott to create or capitalize on those openings? He certainly has the power to knock down Rocky, possibly even knock him out if caught clean. Marciano's biggest opponent was a fighter named Johnny Shkor, who stood around 6'4". He was a journeyman level fighter and not one of the better ones. KO'd in first round by Walcott prior to his 6 round KO loss to Rocky. Can't say he would be any indication of how a Wilder fight might play out, but size alone didn't seem to be an issue for Rocky.

Rocky would need to make it an inside fight, and he would have to avoid Wilder's big right hand in order to get there. At some point you have to believe Wilder lands a few of those haymakers while punching downward and leaving himself exposed. It's easier for most fighters to punch upward and maximize their power than to punch downward. Can Rocky take him out with one punch? Doubtful, but if he lands enough of them he can chop him down just as Fury did.

[Ivich]

The two times Rocky hit the canvas, the knockdowns were set up with a counter by Moore and a lead hook by Walcott. They were more or less flash knockdowns that he got right up from. Does Wilder have the boxing savvy of Moore and Walcott to create or capitalize on those openings? He certainly has the power to knock down Rocky, possibly even knock him out if caught clean. Marciano's biggest opponent was a fighter named Johnny Shkor, who stood around 6'4". He was a journeyman level fighter and not one of the better ones. KO'd in first round by Walcott prior to his 6 round KO loss to Rocky. Can't say he would be any indication of how a Wilder fight might play out, but size alone didn't seem to be an issue for Rocky.



Rocky would need to make it an inside fight, and he would have to avoid Wilder's big right hand in order to get there. At some point you have to believe Wilder lands a few of those haymakers while punching downward and leaving himself exposed. It's easier for most fighters to punch upward and maximize their power than to punch downward. Can Rocky take him out with one punch? Doubtful, but if he lands enough of them he can chop him down just as Fury did.

Marciano said he blacked out for a couple of seconds against Moore,and when he got up he started for the ropes expecting to get a standing 8 count which was waved for title fights then. Marciano was up at 2 but the referee continued to 4 then, realising his mistake stopped .

Marciano was down for a 4 count against Walcott

Foreman v Young was a flash knockdown ,

Marciano v Moore no ,imo.

I don't know how tall either Big Bill Wilson or Humphrey Jackson were, but they were certainly heavier than Schkor when they fought Rocky.

Wilson was229 1/2lbs.

Jackson was 254lbs.

Schkor 220 1/2lbs

Wilder can't fight inside imo,and he does better against the tall upright guys like Breazeale, Ortiz, and Helenius.

[GhostofDempsey]

Marciano said he blacked out for a couple of seconds against Moore,and when he got up he started for the ropes expecting to get a standing 8 count which was waved for title fights then. Marciano was up at 2 but the referee continued to 4 then, realising his mistake stopped .

Marciano was down for a 4 count against Walcott

Foreman v Young was a flash knockdown ,

Marciano v Moore no ,imo.

I don't know how tall either Big Bill Wilson or Humphrey Jackson were, but they were certainly heavier than Schkor when they fought Rocky.

Wilson was229 1/2lbs.

Jackson was 254lbs.

Schkor 220 1/2lbs

Wilder can't fight inside imo,and he does better against the tall upright guys like Breazeale, Ortiz, and Helenius.

Watch the fight, Marciano got right up from the knockdown. Doesn't matter that he was "Blacked out" or buzzed, he wasn't down for very long. Once again you are splitting hairs to make yourself appear all-knowing.

In terms of biggest opponent, Shkor was the tallest, his weight was likely closer to Wilder's best weight of 215. He likely represents the closest opponent in terms of height, frame and weight. Rocky's biggest obstacle outside of Wilder's punching power would be overcoming the height and reach disadvantage. Shkor had the greatest height advantage over Rocky to my knowledge.

[Ivich]

Watch the fight, Marciano got right up from the knockdown. Doesn't matter that he was "Blacked out" or buzzed, he wasn't down for very long. Once again you are splitting hairs to make yourself appear all-knowing.

In terms of biggest opponent, Shkor was the tallest, his weight was likely closer to Wilder's best weight of 215. He likely represents the closest opponent in terms of height, frame and weight. Rocky's biggest obstacle outside of Wilder's punching power would be overcoming the height and reach disadvantage. Shkor had the greatest height advantage over Rocky to my knowledge.

I have the fight , you can hear the commentator counting off the seconds .
I also have a taped interview Rocky made over the radio with Peter Wilson of the Daily Mirror in which Rocky said he blacked out,and when Wilson asked him why he started for the ropes he said,"but you forget Peter we have the standing 8 count".Both he and the referee forgot that it was waived for title fights.
If you are down for a count and get up so discombobulated that you start for the ropes, thinking you have the luxury of a standing count .

THAT IS NOT A FLASH KNOCKDOWN

It's not a question of what I know but of cold facts.They are there for anyone to discern who takes the time to look for them.


You dont know how tall Wilson or Jackson were, but you know they were heavier than Schkor because I just pointed that out to you.

If you had bothered to look it up before hand you wouldn't now be trying to qualify your earlier statement with," likely this and likely that".

Be honest you've never seen any of those three men on film have you!

Why is it so impossible for you to admit you are wrong?
It's really absurd!

[GhostofDempsey]

I have the fight , you can hear the commentator counting off the seconds .
I also have a taped interview Rocky made over the radio with Peter Wilson of the Daily Mirror in which Rocky said he blacked out,and when Wilson asked him why he started for the ropes he said,"but you forget Peter we have the standing 8 count".Both he and the referee forgot that it was waived for title fights.
If you are down for a count and get up so discombobulated that you start for the ropes, thinking you have the luxury of a standing count .

THAT IS NOT A FLASH KNOCKDOWN

It's not a question of what I know but of cold facts.They are there for anyone to discern who takes the time to look for them.


You dont know how tall Wilson or Jackson were, but you know they were heavier than Schkor because I just pointed that out to you.

If you had bothered to look it up before hand you wouldn't now be trying to qualify your earlier statement with," likely this and likely that".

Be honest you've never seen any of those three men on film have you!

Why is it so impossible for you to admit you are wrong?
It's really absurd!

He gets right up from the knockdown. You can split hairs all day long. I'm calling it a flash knockdown. You have no facts, just opinions. Yours aren't worth more than anyone else's on here.

https://www.******************/wwJ5QD3SaOU

I knew Jackson was heavier, I didn't need you to tell me. But if you makes you feel any better to pat yourself on the back and kiss the mirror, by all means indulge.

I wasn't wrong about anything I posted. You have this obsession with trying to call posters out for being wrong while claiming to be in the know, when all you did was move a goal post, offer your interpretation, or offered nothing relevant to the discussion. No one cares about your drunken ramblings and howls in the night to be heard by someone other than your neighbor's dog.

[Ivich]

He gets right up from the knockdown. You can split hairs all day long. I'm calling it a flash knockdown. You have no facts, just opinions. Yours aren't worth more than anyone else's on here.

https://www.******************/wwJ5QD3SaOU

I knew Jackson was heavier, I didn't need you to tell me. But if you makes you feel any better to pat yourself on the back and kiss the mirror, by all means indulge.

I wasn't wrong about anything I posted. You have this obsession with trying to call posters out for being wrong while claiming to be in the know, when all you did was move a goal post, offer your interpretation, or offered nothing relevant to the discussion. No one cares about your drunken ramblings and howls in the night to be heard by someone other than your neighbor's dog.

You don't know if you are wrong or right because you dont know how tall either Jackson or Wilson were,neither do I ,but we do know they were heavier than Schkor.
I'm not patting myself on the back,I'm just pointing out your statement is incorrect and I could not have done so in a more matter of fact,dead pan way.

You are the one making some kind of drama out of it.

At my age I avoid mirrors as often as I can!

Getting knocked down for a count and getting up thinking you are entitled to a standing count and walking towards the ropes to get it,is NOT a flash knockdown.

You didn't know Marciano got up dazed and thought he was entitled to a count did you.

Neither did I until I read about it,that doesn't make me smarter or better than you,it just means I knew something you didn't

But God forbid you would have the balls to say so,

God forbid you would ever admit you were wrong, especially to me whom you can't stand!lol


I haven't had a drink since Sunday lunchtime and won't until this coming Saturday when I go to my Nephew's wedding.

I don't have to worry about neighbours, my place is in its own grounds.

It's okay to dislike someone on a forum.hate them if you will, but you really need to try and not let it cloud your judgement as you do when exchanging with me.

You're far from ****** but your objectivity flies out of the window at times.

BTW The rest of your breakdown on the matchup was on the money imo.

I expect that will annoy you too.lol

[GhostofDempsey]

You don't know if you are wrong or right because you dont know how tall either Jackson or Wilson were,neither do I ,but we do know they were heavier than Schkor.
I'm not patting myself on the back,I'm just pointing out your statement is incorrect and I could not have done so in a more matter of fact,dead pan way.

You are the one making some kind of drama out of it.

At my age I avoid mirrors as often as I can!

Getting knocked down for a count and getting up thinking you are entitled to a standing count and walking towards the ropes to get it,is NOT a flash knockdown.

You didn't know Marciano got up dazed and thought he was entitled to a count did you.

Neither did I until I read about it,that doesn't make me smarter or better than you,it just means I knew something you didn't

But God forbid you would have the balls to say so,

God forbid you would ever admit you were wrong, especially to me whom you can't stand!lol


I haven't had a drink since Sunday lunchtime and won't until this coming Saturday when I go to my Nephew's wedding.

I don't have to worry about neighbours, my place is in its own grounds.

It's okay to dislike someone on a forum.hate them if you will, but you really need to try and not let it cloud your judgement as you do when exchanging with me.

You're far from ****** but your objectivity flies out of the window at times.

BTW The rest of your breakdown on the matchup was on the money imo.

I expect that will annoy you too.lol

My statement is not incorrect. Shkor was the tallest opponent Marciano faced, you tried to split hairs insisting others were bigger because they were heavier. I was clearly discussing height advantage as compared to Wilder. You were trying to play gotcha now you’re babbling about some nonsense to “win” another 9th place internet trophy.

As the video clearly demonstrates, Rocky got up immediately from the Moore knockdown. He immediately began throwing punches as soon as the ref stepped back. He wasn’t running or clinching like an injured fighter who was nearly knocked out. Your incessant need to be right at all costs is weighing heavily on your sense of logic and reason.

[Rosco3387]

You don't know if you are wrong or right because you dont know how tall either Jackson or Wilson were,neither do I ,but we do know they were heavier than Schkor.
I'm not patting myself on the back,I'm just pointing out your statement is incorrect and I could not have done so in a more matter of fact,dead pan way.

You are the one making some kind of drama out of it.

At my age I avoid mirrors as often as I can!

Getting knocked down for a count and getting up thinking you are entitled to a standing count and walking towards the ropes to get it,is NOT a flash knockdown.

You didn't know Marciano got up dazed and thought he was entitled to a count did you.

Neither did I until I read about it,that doesn't make me smarter or better than you,it just means I knew something you didn't

But God forbid you would have the balls to say so,

God forbid you would ever admit you were wrong, especially to me whom you can't stand!lol


I haven't had a drink since Sunday lunchtime and won't until this coming Saturday when I go to my Nephew's wedding.

I don't have to worry about neighbours, my place is in its own grounds.

It's okay to dislike someone on a forum.hate them if you will, but you really need to try and not let it cloud your judgement as you do when exchanging with me.

You're far from ****** but your objectivity flies out of the window at times.

BTW The rest of your breakdown on the matchup was on the money imo.

I expect that will annoy you too.lol

From cong**** to your nephew! I am hoping I will be here in flesh & blood when my boys make the decision! Even their cousins!

Knowing it is not a perfect argument by any means... what if we just assume Wilder @214 pounds is not going to have an major size advantage? I know that neglecting Wilder's reach and size can seem illogical but my reasoning is: Rocky wouldn't really be put off by either of those advantages... Consider fighting Hank Armstrong with a long reach... does it matter? Maybe a bit, but Armstrong is always short in the reach department (pardon the pun). Wilder is not standing across the ring and wading in when he feels like it against Marciano, anymore than an opponent of la motta, or Armstrong would do so.

Regarding size. I don't think in any era it would matter much for Wilder. My hidden agenda here is not so much to fluff Marciano, but rather to point out WHY Wilder is successful. The man is physical proof coming in heavy is detrimental, he has great footspeed and is a premiere puncher. He is all these things at well within the same guidelines there have always been regarding the size of a heavyweight.

I do not necessarily think Wilder would have the success he has had in a better era, primarily because of the competition these days, which are a bunch of big, slow heavyweights all trained in amateur efficient plodding.