Jeffries v Sullivan A Cursory Appraisal

[Ivich]

Another ,"entertainment".

John L. Sullivan vs James J. Jeffries | Who would win? | Fantasy Boxing [HASHTAG="t37"]boxing[/HASHTAG] [HASHTAG="t1710"]history[/HASHTAG] [HASHTAG="t3618"]fantasy[/HASHTAG] - YouTube

[JAB5239]

Another ,"entertainment".

John L. Sullivan vs James J. Jeffries | Who would win? | Fantasy Boxing [HASHTAG="t37"]boxing[/HASHTAG] [HASHTAG="t1710"]history[/HASHTAG] [HASHTAG="t3618"]fantasy[/HASHTAG] - YouTube

Interesting video. I cannot pick as I am not well versed with Sullivan's career.

[Ivich]

Interesting video. I cannot pick as I am not well versed with Sullivan's career.

I think it's a toughie myself.

[Anthony342]

Interesting video. I cannot pick as I am not well versed with Sullivan's career.

Sounds like me here with a lot of the fantasy matchups.

[Dr. Z]

Interesting video. I cannot pick as I am not well versed with Sullivan's career.

I am. He pretty much fought much small non established opponents. Very few quality wins. Meanwhile no fights with Jackson, Fitzsimmmons, Goddard, Maher, or Slavin, All of whom would be the best fight Sullivan beat. He most certainly had his chances to fight Jackson and Slavin. No fights with Godfrey, Childs, Dooley, D Smith or that Minnesota undefeated big slugger ( Well he was for a while ) who's name escape me right now, but was good. All of the above fighters all active in the 1880's or 1890's.

He lost a fights to Cardiff and was given a gift draw.

(Minneapolis Journal 1-19-1887) According to the St Paul Daily Globe, Cardiff did most of the fighting and should have received the decision.

He also fouled and should have DQ'd vs Burke.

Jack Burke "The Irish Lad" was only a middleweight, giving away height, reach and 67 pounds but managed to stay the distance despite numerous fouls by Sullivan

And Sullivan said had he fought Jeffries, Jeffries would have put it to him. The game had changed by that time of Jeffries and Sullivan wasn't very skilled. He knew. Jeffries beat vastly better competition.

His best win is vs Charlie Mitchell , the 5'9" 150 pounds jr middle weight. An over rated slugger he was. And didn't fight anyone very good outside of Corbett who whipped him at age 32. Mitchell would be at best the 6th best fighter on Jeffries resume. Mitchell knocked Sullivan by the way.

Had he fought Jeffries in his prime he's likely knocked out inside of 10 rounds. Historically though he was a legend. Cool match up but that guy in the video doesn't know what he's talking about. I however do.

[Ivich]

Another ,"entertainment".

John L. Sullivan vs James J. Jeffries | Who would win? | Fantasy Boxing [HASHTAG="t37"]boxing[/HASHTAG] [HASHTAG="t1710"]history[/HASHTAG] [HASHTAG="t3618"]fantasy[/HASHTAG] - YouTube

Some ignorant nonsense from DR Zenophobic below.
Sullivan
" He pretty much fought much small non established opponents. Very few quality wins. Meanwhile no fights with Jackson, Fitzsimmmons, Goddard, Maher, or Slavin, All of whom would be the best fight Sullivan beat. He most certainly had his chances to fight Jackson and Slavin. No fights with Godfrey, Childs, Dooley, D Smith or that Minnesota undefeated big slugger ( Well he was for a while ) who's name escape me right now, but was good. All of the above fighters all active in the 1880's or 1890's.

He lost a fights to Cardiff and was given a gift draw. "

Sullivan had been semi retired for a year BEFORE Goddard had his 1 st fight!

Maher has his debut the year Sullivan went into a 4 year hiatus

Slavin reached his peak in 1890 Sullivan had been inactive for 2 years by then!
Fitzsimmons weighed 150lbs in1891when he took the middleweight title from Jack Dempsey that is over 2 years after John L had his last fight before tackling Corbett ,and Dr Zoetrope is criticizing Sulllivan for fighting smaller men!

Sullivan broke his arm in the 1st round against Cardiff and we dont know who, if either deserved the win because we only have one news report.Cardiff was a good sized heavy for his time five feet ten and a half 185lbs

Paddy Ryan was five feet eleven and around 200lbs. In the 1880's bigger pugilists and any ability larger than that were pretty scarce.
Compare Sullivan's opponents with Jim Jeffries' ones, they compare pretty favourably !

[Dr. Z]

Some ignorant nonsense from DR Zenophobic below.
Sullivan
" He pretty much fought much small non established opponents. Very few quality wins. Meanwhile no fights with Jackson, Fitzsimmmons, Goddard, Maher, or Slavin, All of whom would be the best fight Sullivan beat. He most certainly had his chances to fight Jackson and Slavin. No fights with Godfrey, Childs, Dooley, D Smith or that Minnesota undefeated big slugger ( Well he was for a while ) who's name escape me right now, but was good. All of the above fighters all active in the 1880's or 1890's.

He lost a fights to Cardiff and was given a gift draw. "

Sullivan had been semi retired for a year BEFORE Goddard had his 1 st fight!

Maher has his debut the year Sullivan went into a 4 year hiatus

Slavin reached his peak in 1890 Sullivan had been inactive for 2 years by then!
Fitzsimmons weighed 150lbs in1891when he took the middleweight title from Jack Dempsey that is over 2 years after John L had his last fight before tackling Corbett ,and Dr Zoetrope is criticizing Sulllivan for fighting smaller men!

Sullivan broke his arm in the 1st round against Cardiff and we dont know who, if either deserved the win because we only have one news report.Cardiff was a good sized heavy for his time five feet ten and a half 185lbs

Paddy Ryan was five feet eleven and around 200lbs. In the 1880's bigger pugilists and any ability larger than that were pretty scarce.
Compare Sullivan's opponents with Jim Jeffries' ones, they compare pretty favourably !

B()LL****. Goddard was active when Sullivan was active, and efforts were made to fight him well before Corbett.

Are you saying he deserved the decision the draw Cardiff? He did not, he should have lost.

Maybe he didn't have time to fight Maher. But he is sure had time to fight Jackson, Godfrey, Dooley, D Smith and Slavin. The police Gazette took this belt away belt he refused to fight Slaivn and the promoter was there. His name was Rickard K Fox.

Fitzsimmons weighed more than the 150 pound Mitchell, whom Sullivan fought not to mention he was much better than Mitchell!

List you top 5 Sullivans win, and you know the fighters I listed were better, then men beat.

Compare Sullivan's opponents with Jim Jeffries' ones, they compare pretty favourably ![

Sure they were as good as Corbett, Fitzsimmons, and Sharkey! That's just for openers.

Do not be fooled readers as I suspected this is just anther way to ultimately degrade Jeffries.

But you were of course shown up by me with facts! Paddy Ryan has a known recored of 2-7 with 3 draws. More facts. They can be stubborn things.

[Ivich]

Some ignorant nonsense from DR Zenophobic below.
Sullivan
" He pretty much fought much small non established opponents. Very few quality wins. Meanwhile no fights with Jackson, Fitzsimmmons, Goddard, Maher, or Slavin, All of whom would be the best fight Sullivan beat. He most certainly had his chances to fight Jackson and Slavin. No fights with Godfrey, Childs, Dooley, D Smith or that Minnesota undefeated big slugger ( Well he was for a while ) who's name escape me right now, but was good. All of the above fighters all active in the 1880's or 1890's.

He lost a fights to Cardiff and was given a gift draw. "

Sullivan had been semi retired for a year BEFORE Goddard had his 1 st fight!

Maher has his debut the year Sullivan went into a 4 year hiatus

Slavin reached his peak in 1890 Sullivan had been inactive for 2 years by then!
Fitzsimmons weighed 150lbs in1891when he took the middleweight title from Jack Dempsey that is over 2 years after John L had his last fight before tackling Corbett ,and Dr Zoetrope is criticizing Sulllivan for fighting smaller men!

Sullivan broke his arm in the 1st round against Cardiff and we dont know who, if either deserved the win because we only have one news report.Cardiff was a good sized heavy for his time five feet ten and a half 185lbs

Paddy Ryan was five feet eleven and around 200lbs. In the 1880's bigger pugilists and any ability larger than that were pretty scarce.
Compare Sullivan's opponents with Jim Jeffries' ones, they compare pretty favourably !

Joe Goddard had his 1 st pro fight in1889.
He did not even win the Australian title until June 1890

Apart from his abortive return to the ring against Corbett ,Sullivan had his last fight in1888

Joe Goddard 32 15 7 wikifollow Box-pro division heavy status inactive bouts 56 rounds 355 KOs 53.57% career 1889-1902 debut 1889-04-04 ID# 011540 birth name Joseph John Goddard *** male alias James Bradley

Fox never gave Sullivan a belt.after Sullivan snubbed Fox in a restaurant and declined his invitation to join him.Fox declared Jake Kilrain champion and had a belt made for him
Public subscription enabled a championship belt to be made for Sullivan in retaliation and Sullivan annonced that the $10.000 belt made Fox's onelook like a dog collar.

.In later life Sullivan prised out the diamonds from his belt and sold them individually for booze.
He pawned is several times
He then finally sold the remnants of the belt for $185.



Clown Dr Z patted himself on the back, bragging he knows all about Sullivan.


"Cool match up but that guy in the video doesn't know what he's talking about. I however do.
Last edited by Dr. Z; Today, 12:18 PM."


Well now he knows more than he did before I posted this!

Fox was the Editor of the National Police Gazette,the first recognized governing body of US boxing,but
even he could not anoint a worlds champion just because his pride had been hurt.I repeat Fox never gave Sullivan a championship belt, and consequently there was never one for him to take back from Sullivan.

So much for the IGNORANT Dr Zenophobic!

The History Blog » Blog Archive » The Charles Mitchell v. John L. Sullivan draw belt.

[Dr. Z]

There was talk of Goddard fighting Sullivan before he officially retired, in books and the Aussie press.

The Australian's desperately wanted to see Sullivan face one of their native sons be it Jackson, Slavin or Goddard, and some questioned his manhood for not facing them.
There was talk of Jackson vs Sullivan in 1889-1890. Sullivan flat out said no to Slaivn in late 1890. What was Sullivan then, 30-31 years old?

Anyway Sullivan did not fight Jackson, Slavin or Goddard. All three men would rate as better then Sullivan actually beat.

[Willow The Wisp]

I have allot to say about this provocative thread, and I will weigh in when I have a moment.
As a prelude, I respect and enjoy both Dr. Z and Ivich. Efforts to disparage Sullivan I do not abide however. Anything whatsoever that Richard Kyle Fox had to say about Sullivan should not be the basis of anything meaningful. (For cryin' out loud).


Year of Birth and career span of those mentioned, and select number of those not:

Paddy Ryan b. 1851. 1878-1889
(Original) George Godfrey b. 1853 1879-1896
John L. Sullivan. B. 1858. 1877-1892

Jake Kilrain b. 1859 1879-1899
Mike Conley b. 1860. 1883-1894
Charlie Mitchell b. 1861. 1878-1894
Peter Jackson b. 1861. 1882-1899
Joe Goddard b. 1861. 1889-1902
Frank Slavin b. 1862 1882-1907
Mick Dooley b. 1862. 1883-1901
John Clow b. 1862. 1881-1890
Patsy Cardiff b. 1863. 1881-1892
Bob Fitzsimmmons b. 1863. 1881-1916
Joe McAuliffe b. 1864. 1883-1897
Denver Ed Smith b. 1865. 1883-1908
James J. Corbett b. 1866. 1884-1903
Frank Childs b. 1867. 1888-1911
Peter Maher b. 1869. 1888-1911


At a blush, it really seems to me that.....
A. There were, in point of fact, PLENTY of excellent, tough, experienced fighers available in the busy final 3 decades of the 19th century for Sullivan to feast on, who say, James Toney or Rid**** Bowe wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley - and feast on them he DID. With Great housecleaning proliferation.
-And-
B. It looks like expectations are placed on the Great John L here to overstay his unparalleled dominance well into the next generation of heavyweights, which is careless research and nothing else. Not busting anyone's balls here. Just staying respectful of history and truth.
Should he have granted Peter Jackson a shot? Of course he should have!!!
But, in the prevailing public ethics of his time, that would have been equivalent to you sleeping with a 12 year old today.
...So he didn't.