Louis vs Charles

[Dr. Z]

Ivich,

10-5 for Godoy is questionable, but Donovan's 14-1 card for Joe Louis over Tommy Farr un-excusebale!!! Don't attempt to lead me into deep water by listing a few names it is you who will drown. I have many more names who voted for Walcott. You " think " you can influence the board I'll list them all who scored the bout. Take note the wide margin's are all for Walcott. Gee I wonder why. Louis was a very popular fighter. Walcott had next to zero fans. I thought you said bye to me, and yet you came back for more and with less than convincible information.

• Jim Shlemmer, sporting editor, Akron Beacon Journal (Akron, OH) - Walcott
• Jesse A. Linthicum, sporting editor, The Sun (Baltimore, MD) - 8-5-2 Walcott (score provided by Associated Press)
• Jean Rouchard. The Evening Sun (Baltimore, MD) - 8-6-1 Walcott
• Joe Lee, Brooklyn Eagle (Brooklyn, NY) - 8-7 Louis (score provided by United Press)
• Tommy Holmes, Brooklyn Eagle (Brooklyn, NY) - Walcott
• Ralph Frost, Brooklyn Eagle (Brooklyn, NY) - Walcott
• Tom Ryan, sporting editor, Evening Courier (Camden, NJ) - 12-2-1 Walcott
• Wilfrid Smith, Chicago Daily Tribube (Chicago, IL) - 8-6-1 Louis (score provided by United Press)
• James E. Doyle, Cleveland Plain Dealer (Cleveland, OH) - 10-4-1 Walcott
• Gordon Cobble****, sporting editor, Cleveland Plain Dealer (Cleveland, OH) - 7-6-2 Walcott (score provided by Associated Press and United Press)
• Jack Sharkey, International News Service - Walcott
• Frank Eck, Associated Press - 9-6 Walcott
• Elliott Cushing, ******** and Chronicle (Rochester, NY) - 8-6-1 Walcott
• Jack Cuddy, United Press - 7-6-2 Walcott
• Ray Grody, Milwaukee Sentinel (Milwaukee, WI) - 7-6-2 Walcott (score provided by United Press)
• George A. Barton, Minneapolis Morning Tribune (Minneapolis, MI) - 8-6-1 Walcott
• Alan Harvey, Canadian Press - 6-5-4 Walcott
• Gene Ward, Daily News (New York, NY) - 7-6-2 Walcott
• Joe Trimble, Daily News (New York, NY) - 7-6-2 Louis (score provided by Associated Press and United Press)
• Al Buck, New York Post (New York, NY) - 8-5-2 Louis.
• Leonard Cohen, New York Post (New York, NY) - 8-6-1 Walcott
• Jimmy Cannon, New York Post (New York, NY) - 8 rounds for Walcott
• Anthony Marenghi, Newark Star-Ledger (Newark, NJ) - 7-6-2 Louis
• Joe Gootter, Paterson Evening News (Paterson, NJ) - 9-6 Louis
• Al Abrams, sporting editor, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (Pittsburgh, PA) - 8-6-1 Walcott
• W. J. McGoogan, St. Louis Post-Dispatch (St. Louis, MO) - 7-7-1
• John M. Flynn, sporting editor, The Berkshire Evening Eagle (Pittsfield, MA) - Walcott
• Clif Keane, The Boston Daily Globe (Boston, MA) - 8-5-2 Louis
• Bill Cunningham, The Boston Herald (Boston, MA) - 7-6-2 Walcott (score provided by United Press)
• Sec Taylor, sporting editor, The Des Moines Register (Des Moines, IA) - 8-6-1 Walcott
• Burton Hawkins, The Evening Star (Washington, DC) - 7-6-2 Walcott
• Bill Lee, sporting editor, The Hartford Courant (Hartford, CT) - 7-4-4 Walcott
• Charlie Tiang, sporting editor, The Kingston Daily Freeman (Kingston, NY) - 9-4-2 Walcott
• Wendell Smith, sporting editor, The Pittsburgh Courier (Pittsburgh, PA) - 7-6-2 Louis
• James P. Dawson, The New York Times (New York, NY) - 8-7 Louis
• Joseph C. Nichols, New York Times - 8-7 Louis (score provided by Associated Press and United Press)
• John Webster, The Philadelphia Inquirer and Public Ledger (Philadelphia, PA) - 11-3-1 Walcott
• Lawton Carver, sporting editor, International News Service - 7-5-3 Louis
• Harold W. Heinz, The Springfield Union (Springfield, MA) - 8-5-2 Walcott
• John McNulty, PM Daily (New York, NY) - 7-6-2 Walcott
• Tom Meany, sporting editor, PM Daily (New York, NY) - 9-6 Louis (score provided by Associated Press)
• Nat Fleischer, The Ring (New York, NY) - 8-6-1 Louis

• Wilbur Wood, sporting editor, New York Sun - 11-4 Walcott
• Grantland Rice, New York Sun - 11-4 Walcott
• Lester Bromberg, New York World Telegram - 10-5 Walcott
• Joe Williams, New York World Telegram - Walcott
• Max Case, New York Journal-American - Walcott
• Frank Graham, New York Journal-American - Walcott
• Lewis Burton, New York Journal-American - Walcott
• Bill Corum, New York Journal-American - 8-7 Louis
• Dan Parker, New York Daily Mirror - 9-6 Louis (according to AP) or 8-7 Louis (according to UP)
• Jim Jennings, New York Daily Mirror - 7-6-2 Louis
• Jesse Abramson, New York Herald Tribune - 8-7 Louis
• Red Smith, New York Herald Tribune - 8-7 Louis
• Ted Meier, Associated Press - 11-3-1 Walcott
• Hugh S. Fullerton, Associated Press - Walcott. "He scored the harder punches."
• Murray Rose, Associated Press - 9-5-1 Walcott
• Ted Smits, Associated Press - Walcott
• Gayle Talbot, Associated Press - 10-4-1 Walcott
• Leo H. Peterson, sporting editor, United Press - 7-5-3 Walcott
• Oscar Fraley, United Press - 7-6-2 Walcott
• Bob Considine, International News Service - 8-7 Walcott
• Davis J. Walsh, International News Service - 8-3-4 Walcott
• Harry Grayson, Newspaper Enterprise Association - 8-4-3 Walcott
• John Lardner, North American Newspaper Alliance - Louis
• John Carmichael, sporting editor, Chicago Daily News - 11-4 Walcott (according to AP) or 8-4-3 Walcott (according to UP)
• Gene Kessler, Chicago Times - 7-6-2 Walcott
• Clair Kelley, Chicago Herald-American - 9-3-3 Walcott
• Jack Conway, Boston American - Louis
• Gerry Hern, Boston Post - 7-7-1 (according to AP and Al Buck of NY Post) or 7-6-2 Walcott (according to UP)
• Ed Delaney, Philadelphia Daily News - Walcott
• Matt Ring, Philadelphia Evening Bulletin - 8-7 Walcott
• Whitey Lewis, Cleveland News - 8-7 Walcott
• Franklin Lewis, Cleveland Press - Walcott
• Shirley Povich, Washington Post - Walcott
• Bob Addie, Washinton Times-Herald - 9-3-3 Walcott
• Hank O'Donnell, Waterbury ********** - 12-2-1 Walcott
• George Edmond, St. Paul Pioneer Press - 8-5-2 Louis
• Bill Demuth, Wheeling Intelligencer - 8-5-2 Walcott
• Robert Bre, La Presse (Paris, France) - 7-5-3 Louis
• Jean Kroutchtain, AFP (French News Agency) - 7-5-3 Walcott
• Bob Murphy, Detroit Evening Times, 8-5-2 Walcott

[Willow The Wisp]

Allot of ground covered here. My only input is that the 50-51 version of Louis was Rock Solid in a more mature athletic frame, and still an excellent heavyweight. Charles was better than Louis like Holmes was better than Ali.

[Ivich]

Ivich,

10-5 for Godoy is questionable, but Donovan's 14-1 card for Joe Louis over Tommy Farr un-excusebale!!! Don't attempt to lead me into deep water by listing a few names it is you who will drown. I have many more names who voted for Walcott. You " think " you can influence the board I'll list them all who scored the bout. Take note the wide margin's are all for Walcott. Gee I wonder why. Louis was a very popular fighter. Walcott had next to zero fans. I thought you said bye to me, and yet you came back for more and with less than convincible information.

• Jim Shlemmer, sporting editor, Akron Beacon Journal (Akron, OH) - Walcott
• Jesse A. Linthicum, sporting editor, The Sun (Baltimore, MD) - 8-5-2 Walcott (score provided by Associated Press)
• Jean Rouchard. The Evening Sun (Baltimore, MD) - 8-6-1 Walcott
• Joe Lee, Brooklyn Eagle (Brooklyn, NY) - 8-7 Louis (score provided by United Press)
• Tommy Holmes, Brooklyn Eagle (Brooklyn, NY) - Walcott
• Ralph Frost, Brooklyn Eagle (Brooklyn, NY) - Walcott
• Tom Ryan, sporting editor, Evening Courier (Camden, NJ) - 12-2-1 Walcott
• Wilfrid Smith, Chicago Daily Tribube (Chicago, IL) - 8-6-1 Louis (score provided by United Press)
• James E. Doyle, Cleveland Plain Dealer (Cleveland, OH) - 10-4-1 Walcott
• Gordon Cobble****, sporting editor, Cleveland Plain Dealer (Cleveland, OH) - 7-6-2 Walcott (score provided by Associated Press and United Press)
• Jack Sharkey, International News Service - Walcott
• Frank Eck, Associated Press - 9-6 Walcott
• Elliott Cushing, ******** and Chronicle (Rochester, NY) - 8-6-1 Walcott
• Jack Cuddy, United Press - 7-6-2 Walcott
• Ray Grody, Milwaukee Sentinel (Milwaukee, WI) - 7-6-2 Walcott (score provided by United Press)
• George A. Barton, Minneapolis Morning Tribune (Minneapolis, MI) - 8-6-1 Walcott
• Alan Harvey, Canadian Press - 6-5-4 Walcott
• Gene Ward, Daily News (New York, NY) - 7-6-2 Walcott
• Joe Trimble, Daily News (New York, NY) - 7-6-2 Louis (score provided by Associated Press and United Press)
• Al Buck, New York Post (New York, NY) - 8-5-2 Louis.
• Leonard Cohen, New York Post (New York, NY) - 8-6-1 Walcott
• Jimmy Cannon, New York Post (New York, NY) - 8 rounds for Walcott
• Anthony Marenghi, Newark Star-Ledger (Newark, NJ) - 7-6-2 Louis
• Joe Gootter, Paterson Evening News (Paterson, NJ) - 9-6 Louis
• Al Abrams, sporting editor, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (Pittsburgh, PA) - 8-6-1 Walcott
• W. J. McGoogan, St. Louis Post-Dispatch (St. Louis, MO) - 7-7-1
• John M. Flynn, sporting editor, The Berkshire Evening Eagle (Pittsfield, MA) - Walcott
• Clif Keane, The Boston Daily Globe (Boston, MA) - 8-5-2 Louis
• Bill Cunningham, The Boston Herald (Boston, MA) - 7-6-2 Walcott (score provided by United Press)
• Sec Taylor, sporting editor, The Des Moines Register (Des Moines, IA) - 8-6-1 Walcott
• Burton Hawkins, The Evening Star (Washington, DC) - 7-6-2 Walcott
• Bill Lee, sporting editor, The Hartford Courant (Hartford, CT) - 7-4-4 Walcott
• Charlie Tiang, sporting editor, The Kingston Daily Freeman (Kingston, NY) - 9-4-2 Walcott
• Wendell Smith, sporting editor, The Pittsburgh Courier (Pittsburgh, PA) - 7-6-2 Louis
• James P. Dawson, The New York Times (New York, NY) - 8-7 Louis
• Joseph C. Nichols, New York Times - 8-7 Louis (score provided by Associated Press and United Press)
• John Webster, The Philadelphia Inquirer and Public Ledger (Philadelphia, PA) - 11-3-1 Walcott
• Lawton Carver, sporting editor, International News Service - 7-5-3 Louis
• Harold W. Heinz, The Springfield Union (Springfield, MA) - 8-5-2 Walcott
• John McNulty, PM Daily (New York, NY) - 7-6-2 Walcott
• Tom Meany, sporting editor, PM Daily (New York, NY) - 9-6 Louis (score provided by Associated Press)
• Nat Fleischer, The Ring (New York, NY) - 8-6-1 Louis

• Wilbur Wood, sporting editor, New York Sun - 11-4 Walcott
• Grantland Rice, New York Sun - 11-4 Walcott
• Lester Bromberg, New York World Telegram - 10-5 Walcott
• Joe Williams, New York World Telegram - Walcott
• Max Case, New York Journal-American - Walcott
• Frank Graham, New York Journal-American - Walcott
• Lewis Burton, New York Journal-American - Walcott
• Bill Corum, New York Journal-American - 8-7 Louis
• Dan Parker, New York Daily Mirror - 9-6 Louis (according to AP) or 8-7 Louis (according to UP)
• Jim Jennings, New York Daily Mirror - 7-6-2 Louis
• Jesse Abramson, New York Herald Tribune - 8-7 Louis
• Red Smith, New York Herald Tribune - 8-7 Louis
• Ted Meier, Associated Press - 11-3-1 Walcott
• Hugh S. Fullerton, Associated Press - Walcott. "He scored the harder punches."
• Murray Rose, Associated Press - 9-5-1 Walcott
• Ted Smits, Associated Press - Walcott
• Gayle Talbot, Associated Press - 10-4-1 Walcott
• Leo H. Peterson, sporting editor, United Press - 7-5-3 Walcott
• Oscar Fraley, United Press - 7-6-2 Walcott
• Bob Considine, International News Service - 8-7 Walcott
• Davis J. Walsh, International News Service - 8-3-4 Walcott
• Harry Grayson, Newspaper Enterprise Association - 8-4-3 Walcott
• John Lardner, North American Newspaper Alliance - Louis
• John Carmichael, sporting editor, Chicago Daily News - 11-4 Walcott (according to AP) or 8-4-3 Walcott (according to UP)
• Gene Kessler, Chicago Times - 7-6-2 Walcott
• Clair Kelley, Chicago Herald-American - 9-3-3 Walcott
• Jack Conway, Boston American - Louis
• Gerry Hern, Boston Post - 7-7-1 (according to AP and Al Buck of NY Post) or 7-6-2 Walcott (according to UP)
• Ed Delaney, Philadelphia Daily News - Walcott
• Matt Ring, Philadelphia Evening Bulletin - 8-7 Walcott
• Whitey Lewis, Cleveland News - 8-7 Walcott
• Franklin Lewis, Cleveland Press - Walcott
• Shirley Povich, Washington Post - Walcott
• Bob Addie, Washinton Times-Herald - 9-3-3 Walcott
• Hank O'Donnell, Waterbury ********** - 12-2-1 Walcott
• George Edmond, St. Paul Pioneer Press - 8-5-2 Louis
• Bill Demuth, Wheeling Intelligencer - 8-5-2 Walcott
• Robert Bre, La Presse (Paris, France) - 7-5-3 Louis
• Jean Kroutchtain, AFP (French News Agency) - 7-5-3 Walcott
• Bob Murphy, Detroit Evening Times, 8-5-2 Walcott

I have all that ,you just cut and pasted it from Box rec You produced a statement referring to MSG and Louis' judges I proved those 2 decisions had different judges so did Louis have 4 judges in two fights on his payroll?We arent talking about the Farr fight we are expressly talking about the 1 st Walcott one.
Donovan the referee gave Godoy 1 round more than Judge George Lecron.
Louis fought Farr at Yankee Stadium did he have all the judges there on his payroll too?
The Louis vFarr was closer than Donovan's card imo ,but not that close, nobody thought Farr won ,and that includes himself!
Oh the three title defences Louis had that went to a decision
NONE OF THE SIX JUDGES OFFICIATED AT EITHER OF THE OTHER FIGHTS.
That blows your accusations of corrupt judges out of the water!
Louis had 2 close decision wins in title defences he gave both challengers return matches and had different officials in both of them.As Champion he could have demanded certain judges if he felt they would be favourable to him just as he could have refused those he thought might be biased against him.
HE DID NEITHER !
As it turned out the officials were not needed as Louis knocked both of them out in rematches!

[Ivich]

Allot of ground covered here. My only input is that the 50-51 version of Louis was Rock Solid in a more mature athletic frame, and still an excellent heavyweight. Charles was better than Louis like Holmes was better than Ali.

The 50/51 version of Joe Louis was a mere facsimile of the great fighter he had been.

[Willow The Wisp]

The 50/51 version of Joe Louis was a mere facsimile of the great fighter he had been.

Needless to say.

[QueensburyRules]

The 50/51 version of Joe Louis was a mere facsimile of the great fighter he had been.

- - Joe was still a Ring Ranked, #5 as I recall...yer welcome

[Ivich]

Needless to say.

The point being his physical appearance could not indicate the erosion of his reflexes,the disappearance of his timing, the absence of his right cross,or the limitations of his legs.

[Ivich]

- - Joe was still a Ring Ranked, #5 as I recall...yer welcome

That is relative, it was a decade in which;
So so fighters like .these were top ten ranked.
Oma no 8
Brion no7
Williams no10
****ell no2
Slade no10
Sys no 5
Dunlap no 4
Lastarza no2
Neuhaus no6
Norkus no9
Bucceroni no3
Ie a shallow talent pool in a soft era.That's another reason pre-war,older guys were still having success

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n31541293]

That is relative, it was a decade in which;
So so fighters like .these were top ten ranked.
Oma no 8
Brion no7
Williams no10
****ell no2
Slade no10
Sys no 5
Dunlap no 4
Lastarza no2
Neuhaus no6
Norkus no9
Bucceroni no3
Savold no2
Ie a shallow talent pool in a soft era.That's another reason pre-war,older guys were still ranked,

Savold turned pro in1933 no 2
Louis1934
Walcott 1930. Champion 2 decades later

[Dr. Z]

I have all that ,you just cut and pasted it from Box rec You produced a statement referring to MSG and Louis' judges I proved those 2 decisions had different judges so did Louis have 4 judges in two fights on his payroll?We arent talking about the Farr fight we are expressly talking about the 1 st Walcott one.
Donovan the referee gave Godoy 1 round more than Judge George Lecron.
Louis fought Farr at Yankee Stadium did he have all the judges there on his payroll too?
The Louis vFarr was closer than Donovan's card imo ,but not that close, nobody thought Farr won ,and that includes himself!
Oh the three title defences Louis had that went to a decision
NONE OF THE SIX JUDGES OFFICIATED AT EITHER OF THE OTHER FIGHTS.
That blows your accusations of corrupt judges out of the water!
Louis had 2 close decision wins in title defences he gave both challengers return matches and had different officials in both of them.As Champion he could have demanded certain judges if he felt they would be favourable to him just as he could have refused those he thought might be biased against him.
HE DID NEITHER !
As it turned out the officials were not needed as Louis knocked both of them out in rematches!

I listed all cards because you did not. It proves my point and you purposely left them out and only included the few Louis won as if to slant things. Again all the wide cards are for Walcott. The vast majority the cards are for Walcott. The available video, which include the two knock downs shows Walcott is the better, Louis body language is the of loser, the crowed booed the decision loudly. And Louis said I'm sorry to Joe Walcott right after the decision was announced. It checks all the boxes for a bad decision and before you say Louis was too old at 34, Walcott was the same age. Face it, Louis lost.

Yeah he came form way behind in the re-match to knock Walcott out, but the stench of the first decision remains.

Donovan was Louis personal ref in 14+ fights and his score cards are crap, 14-1 for Louis over Farr? The judging was off in the Godoy fights too. Watch it some time, ESPN ran it and gave Godoy most of the rounds not shown. Godoy easily bulls Louis around the right, shows better defense, and clearly throws and lands more punches! No one lands a significant blow. How do you score such a fight? The 1930's had problems with fixes. Especially in Madison Square Garden where Louis fought multiple times. Did you know that?

I did not say Farr won, don't put words in my mouth, I said the scoring was off by Donovan!

Yeah Louis Ko's Conn in the first match. But it doesn't change the fact the Conn at 169 pounds,one pound within the super middle weight weigh limit at weight in, would have seen his arm raised if it was 12 rounds! When it ended Louis told Conn he had the World Heavyweight championship for 12 rounds, he just did now what to do with it.

The judging was fair in this fight. Donovan wasn't the ref!

• Referee: Eddie Joseph 7-5
• Judge: Marty Monroe 7-4
• Judge: Bill Healy 6-6

In closing Louis was outboxed by the best five men he fought in Schmeling , Conn, Wlacott, Charles, and Marciano and would have lost ALL matches in 12 rounds. He is considered a great boxer by some but he is not vs skilled sub 200 pound men. Only looks good vs the big men of the times who wouldn't be raked today, and if they were if would be for a brief amount of time. You wrote nothing that blows me out water, your battleship was sunk.

The truth must hurt. Facts can be stubborn things.