Who Was The Most Complete Heavyweight Champ Skill Wise?

[DeeMoney]

I would say Holyfield, Tunney, Charles, Lewis and Louis would be my top picks for most complete. Every fighter has a flaw or bad habit, whether it’s Louis’ tendency to drop his left, or Holyfield’s head butting, I would still cite these five as text book boxers who demonstrate all of the fundamentals of a well rounded fighter.

I think thats pretty spot on. Noteworthy, that outside of Louis & Lewis the others moved up from lighter weights, and possibly were at their P4P best at lighter weights.

[QueensburyRules]

- - Gonna point out to the usual suspects that Tyson gave up reach in every fight he was in save some midget he may have fought. He had to be inside the opposition reach to punch, ie an inside fighter.

That some all knowing hairballs want scarf up some immaculate profile of what a good inside fighter is perfectly acceptable in that it is so typically human to be wrong and not know it.

Wlad/Vitali/Ali 3 examples of outside fighters who almost always had and used height and reach over opponents yet used 3 different distinctive styles.

What else U boys need to know?

[The Old LefHook]

Whatever we need to know, we will not be calling on you, churl.

[Ivich]

He didn't even know what he was converting to. Some whack a doo cult copying a religion he knew nothing about. He was a young, dumb impressionable guy who got brainwashed by con men. Turning this into a whole Ali-Clay debate is a waste of time.

Ali remained a ****** all his life and was sincere about his religion.Sincere enough to give up 4 years of his prime for it and risk prison.I respect anyone's religion I just asked LH why he refuses to call him Muhammad Ali,because I believe anyone has the right to call themselves what they wish and to expect to be called by that name.Its my thread and I'm turning it into nothing but what it is a pick for the most complete heavyweight.

[BKM-]

Ali remained a ****** all his life and was sincere about his religion.Sincere enough to give up 4 years of his prime for it and risk prison.I respect anyone's religion I just asked LH why he refuses to call him Muhammad Ali,because I believe anyone has the right to call themselves what they wish and to expect to be called by that name.Its my thread and I'm turning it into nothing but what it is a pick for the most complete heavyweight.

Neither the cult of Nation of Islam or the religion of Islam are respectable if you look into them, and nobody should be forced to respect either of them. Main reason being is that they don't even respect you if you're not a part of them.

As for Ali, again, he lacked intelligence, was easily manipulated and just hopped on whatever sounded cool to him at the time. He was mad about being rejected by a racist restaurant owner and NOI was the perfect foil for his anger. Then he got fully indoctrinated years later when he was punch drunk on top of that.

[Ivich]

Neither the cult of Nation of Islam or the religion of Islam are respectable if you look into them, and nobody should be forced to respect either of them. Main reason being is that they don't even respect you if you're not a part of them.

As for Ali, again, he lacked intelligence, was easily manipulated and just hopped on whatever sounded cool to him at the time. He was mad about being rejected by a racist restaurant owner and NOI was the perfect foil for his anger. Then he got fully indoctrinated years later when he was punch drunk on top of that.

You and I have nothing to discuss.

[The Old LefHook]

I have no love for mossback apostates.

[Blond Beast]

- - Mike fought to his physical dimensions, and it is quite skillful to utilize such a wide variety of footwork, body positioning and punches from all different angles by both hands. Very few fighters as in next to zero dominated like Mike as demonstrated by his KOs and wide scorecards.

U can be like many and discount him for continuing to fight while handicapped on strong, experimental psychiatric sedatives, but what ever. Had he had half a foot chopped off and continued to fight at that low level that was enough for him to collect belts and set new purse records, he'd be lauded to the gills.

The Ks likewise don't get credit their dominance on the cards and prodigious KO records thanks to their style of maximizing their size. They introduced the concept of fighting like a Big Man with prodigious offense and defense, but, lets face it, Americans were brainwashed to hate Soviets much like Germans and Japs in WW2, so emasculated Americans turtled up with fantasy baseball, football, and basketball and the UFC. The Ks controlled the pocket both in and out with smart, economical footwork complementing their size and reach where they didn't have resort to giving up rounds running like Ali. He was responsible for the overall decline of American boxing heavily saddled now wif the Heinie run and stink style that sends fans screaming to the UFC such that they are now a $5 Bil corporation whereas nobody in their right mind would ever buyout Haymon or Arum for even $10 mil.

I’m cdn. Was a big fan of the K brothers. I don’t care where a fighter comes from. I’d hate to see even my favourite fighter ( Morales ) get a decision I didn’t think he deserved. Too many underdogs have gotten screwed. Eye witnesses are unreliable.
I thought Vitali was an excellent blend of style, power, and determination. He could really put it on someone when he wanted to without loading up. Body shots, uppercut, long punches. He could take a shot too. His best defence was just leaning back but it worked for him. He’d be trouble for any man that ever existed.
Wlad could be great but was also frustrating. He wasent a natural. He was clumsy often. He’d sometimes be afraid to throw his right hand. He’d constantly try and land his leaping left hook which would miss often and lead to an ugly clinch. Drove me nuts. Course it’d look great those times it did work. He was often off balance and stumbling. He didn’t take a punch well. Still he was a formidable force when he was humming. He never threw body shots. Maybe a handful of uppercuts his whole career and they usually showed why he didn’t throw them. Still he could jab, hook off the jab and land laser rights at his best. He could go the distance and was always in shape. I think Corey Sanders forever took some of his confidence away. Just like I think Ruiz did to AJ. AJ went after a downed Ruiz which was great and landed huge punches but Ruiz took them and landed on AJ. It’s the type of thing you need to forget but I guess you never can.
If AJ improves and Usyk does worse according to the last cards ( generous to AJ ) I could see them finding a way to give AJ the win. Anything can happen in Saudi.

[Blond Beast]

Whoever thinks Tyson was a great inside fighter is probably confused as to exactly what in-fighting is. Tyson was a mid range fighter. His arms were short, so he was indeed close to his man for his ideal strike, but not as close as in-fighting dictates. He was a poor inside fighter who could not fight in clinches at all. He was in range for those short arms...but wanted even more room before he would punch.

Mike is an ATG currently out of favor. It would not be fair to leave him out of an AT mythical tournament. The man never fought that Mike didn't have at least a decent chance to KO, even where he might be an underdog.

Answering another question: Why do I call Ali Clay? I have an awful lot of respect for his mother.

This is exactly how I see it. Well put. I’ve seen all his fights multiple times. He didn’t have short arms for his height. Still I understand that he had shorter arms than most of his opponents who were taller. He didn’t have proportionally long arms like a lot of tall heavies did, but they were not short for his height. The guy had size 13.5 shoes. Lennox had long arms for his height for example. The truth is lots of fighters shorter than their opponents have longer arms than their opponents at all sorts of weights. Sometimes it’s crazy counter intuitive. It’s not as common at HW level though of course as heights, reach and weights can vary the most.
Tyson loved to have a bit of space and slam In with a one two. Always looked for the ref to separate so he could do it again. He rarely fought to get out. He always looked to the ref in the clinch. He took more shots in the clinch than he dished out. He was the opposite of violent on the inside, nor was he dirty, early in his career anyway. He was a mid range fighter like you said. He could explode in with both hands. He cycled through his combos until something landed. He was proactive not reactive. He looks the same in all his fights. Does all the same things. Everyone knew what to expect. He never changed anything no matter who he fought. His wasent a natural counter puncher either. He moved his head proactively not reactively. Evander slipped punches. Tyson came in moving it, at least early in fights. His mythical head movement is really more of a thing that people see in his training videos than in actual fights. Even the slipping and counters he loves to show to this day aren’t anywhere as apparent in his fights. His jumping to different angles look great on a bag, but he never boxed circles around anyone. After a couple rounds he had some of the flattest ever. He’d put up his guard and then slam in again. Rarely ever jab. He was great at what he did. He was faster and hit harder than his opponents so why people think he was always at a disadvantage I don’t know.
I love Mike. We all do. But his footwork, head movement, jab, counters, is what fans want to believe as great. He never improved. He never changed anything. He threw hard with both hands. Had great combos. Had a good chin. Good stamina.
All anyone has to do is watch all his fights objectively and it’s plain as day. He was great but as obvious as any fighter out there in what he was going to do. Nobody hits the hardest, fastest, and has the best footwork and best head movement, best counters etc. lol There’s a reason the biggest upset in boxing history happened to Mike Tyson and nobody else!!

[Ivich]

This is exactly how I see it. Well put. I’ve seen all his fights multiple times. He didn’t have short arms for his height. Still I understand that he had shorter arms than most of his opponents who were taller. He didn’t have proportionally long arms like a lot of tall heavies did, but they were not short for his height. The guy had size 13.5 shoes. Lennox had long arms for his height for example. The truth is lots of fighters shorter than their opponents have longer arms than their opponents at all sorts of weights. Sometimes it’s crazy counter intuitive. It’s not as common at HW level though of course as heights, reach and weights can vary the most.
Tyson loved to have a bit of space and slam In with a one two. Always looked for the ref to separate so he could do it again. He rarely fought to get out. He always looked to the ref in the clinch. He took more shots in the clinch than he dished out. He was the opposite of violent on the inside, nor was he dirty, early in his career anyway. He was a mid range fighter like you said. He could explode in with both hands. He cycled through his combos until something landed. He was proactive not reactive. He looks the same in all his fights. Does all the same things. Everyone knew what to expect. He never changed anything no matter who he fought. His wasent a natural counter puncher either. He moved his head proactively not reactively. Evander slipped punches. Tyson came in moving it, at least early in fights. His mythical head movement is really more of a thing that people see in his training videos than in actual fights. Even the slipping and counters he loves to show to this day aren’t anywhere as apparent in his fights. His jumping to different angles look great on a bag, but he never boxed circles around anyone. After a couple rounds he had some of the flattest ever. He’d put up his guard and then slam in again. Rarely ever jab. He was great at what he did. He was faster and hit harder than his opponents so why people think he was always at a disadvantage I don’t know.
I love Mike. We all do. But his footwork, head movement, jab, counters, is what fans want to believe as great. He never improved. He never changed anything. He threw hard with both hands. Had great combos. Had a good chin. Good stamina.
All anyone has to do is watch all his fights objectively and it’s plain as day. He was great but as obvious as any fighter out there in what he was going to do. Nobody hits the hardest, fastest, and has the best footwork and best head movement, best counters etc. lol There’s a reason the biggest upset in boxing history happened to Mike Tyson and nobody else!!

Good post!