Who Was The Most Complete Heavyweight Champ Skill Wise?

[BKM-]

This is exactly how I see it. Well put. I’ve seen all his fights multiple times. He didn’t have short arms for his height. Still I understand that he had shorter arms than most of his opponents who were taller. He didn’t have proportionally long arms like a lot of tall heavies did, but they were not short for his height. The guy had size 13.5 shoes. Lennox had long arms for his height for example. The truth is lots of fighters shorter than their opponents have longer arms than their opponents at all sorts of weights. Sometimes it’s crazy counter intuitive. It’s not as common at HW level though of course as heights, reach and weights can vary the most.
Tyson loved to have a bit of space and slam In with a one two. Always looked for the ref to separate so he could do it again. He rarely fought to get out. He always looked to the ref in the clinch. He took more shots in the clinch than he dished out. He was the opposite of violent on the inside, nor was he dirty, early in his career anyway. He was a mid range fighter like you said. He could explode in with both hands. He cycled through his combos until something landed. He was proactive not reactive. He looks the same in all his fights. Does all the same things. Everyone knew what to expect. He never changed anything no matter who he fought. His wasent a natural counter puncher either. He moved his head proactively not reactively. Evander slipped punches. Tyson came in moving it, at least early in fights. His mythical head movement is really more of a thing that people see in his training videos than in actual fights. Even the slipping and counters he loves to show to this day aren’t anywhere as apparent in his fights. His jumping to different angles look great on a bag, but he never boxed circles around anyone. After a couple rounds he had some of the flattest ever. He’d put up his guard and then slam in again. Rarely ever jab. He was great at what he did. He was faster and hit harder than his opponents so why people think he was always at a disadvantage I don’t know.
I love Mike. We all do. But his footwork, head movement, jab, counters, is what fans want to believe as great. He never improved. He never changed anything. He threw hard with both hands. Had great combos. Had a good chin. Good stamina.
All anyone has to do is watch all his fights objectively and it’s plain as day. He was great but as obvious as any fighter out there in what he was going to do. Nobody hits the hardest, fastest, and has the best footwork and best head movement, best counters etc. lol There’s a reason the biggest upset in boxing history happened to Mike Tyson and nobody else!!

Well said.
Just one little thing. The bastard was definitely a dirty fighter. He used his elbows a lot in the clinch and a bit less noticable was how he would crouch and then stand back up straight which would produce a headbutt. He knew all the tricks and bragged about it on camera(on the old HBO docu Mike Tyson's Greatest Hits) he learned by watching old footage of the greats, the toothless bastard.

One day, somebody did it to him and he started crying and biting. But that's a story for another thread.

[Good ol' Douglas]

Lack of power is only some of it, mostly for non experts. I have never heard an expert criticize him for lack of power. He lacked other things, like a lefhook and body punching, both of which are highly desirable in a fighter's medicine bag. Sure, you can find him doing both these, if you search, but he never did them on a regular basis or even a sustained period in a particular fight.

Clay was the greatest outside fighter of all time IMO. When you are cruising around your opponent on the outside, no one hits that hard. He was also one of the more effective punchers of all time, which is obviously more important than punching hard. But he was also the most effective outside fighter of AT IMO. He only fought inside when he got older and had to, after the reinstatement of his license.

Don't stop there. His chin was enviable for a boxer. Not many were as sturdy. Remember that he was the best ring general ever as well. Leonard rivals him, but Leonard showed poor ring generalship in his biggest fight, whereas Clay was masterful in his biggy against Foreman. George was considered much more dangerous than Joe had ever been--he was the Frazier-destroyer who had treated Joe like a boy. According to the triangle theory George was supposed to win. But he got out-generaled, pure and simple, by a strategy probably not a single other fighter who ever lived would have employed without being forced to.

As far as this thread is concerned and its qualifications, Clay is too original for the thread. His traditional medicine bag was light. His tricks, as you mention, hailed from his superior athleticism, not tradition. His effectiveness was mostly self-created, self-imagined. He does not stack up as a hard puncher, yet was one of the more effective punchers ever. He beats every guy rated above him in this thread in an actual fight. We will see how those guys like three arrow punches straight into the face with laser accuracy. If Clay aimed for the chin he didn't hit the forehead.

How sure am I? I would bet my life, if several million dollars were also up for grabs to the winning bet, that Clay beats everyone mentioned so far, because I believe he beats everyone anyway.

I have heard all the legitimate arguments against him and all the ******ity and personal biases as well. I have seen Clay fight in real time, and seen everyone after that in real time too. He beats them, from everything I've seen. Clay goes in with any of them knowing he is much faster, though Tunney may be similarly fast.

Some of the fights are bound to be brutal. Any version of Clay (other than novice) up to Foreman will prevail, I believe. I would forecast that his toughest fight among the well-rounded group might be Fury, who has his own store of guile and generalship.

Ali lacked power because he threw arm punches due to poor technique and weight transitions.

He had fast feet and flashy showmanship which people confuse for good footwork. In reality, it was inefficient resulting in premature fatigue, most evident in the 70s, and made him unable to sit down on punches.

You mentioned the fact he was a head-hunter with an arsenal that almost only consisted of a jab and a cross.

But how about his inability to fight effectively on the front foot (e.g. the Young robbery) or need to step in with his jab making him predictable to time (e.g. the entire Norton trilogy)?

Where were his variety of feints, probes and level changes? All he really had was his very occasional step in hand feint to mask his jab, but you need way more layers than that to be the best outboxer to ever live, fast feet and a good (yet overrated) jab are not enough.

His style in general was unorthodox and only really effective due to the athleticism and physical advantages he held over his contemporaries.

Do you think he would get away with constantly pulling his head back on the line against fighters much taller and longer than him? Man could not judge his range well against 5'10 73" Frazier's left hook

If you believe Ali is more technically proficient or "complete" than the likes of Holmes, Tyson, Wlad, Fury, Usyk, etc., YDKSAB!

Also, "Clay" may have been Ali's athletic prime, but he had absolutely no inside game then and no clue how to fight southpaws.

Even 70s Ali could only excessively clinch and half nelson his opponent on the inside. But he did develop a lead right hand for the open stance matchup, however, his style still required him to circle into the power hand of the southpaw to get his jab off.

Imagine that against Usyk! He would be slipping that jab like a pendulum and walking Ali onto left hand counters without even needing to try.

[Willow The Wisp]

Joe Louis. Phenomenal.

[Good ol' Douglas]

Joe Louis. Phenomenal.

He was a slow, stiff plodding bum.

Anybody who mentions the Brown Bummer gets immediately dismissed as a faux-intellectual engaging in nostalgic circle jerks.

[BKM-]

He was a slow, stiff plodding bum.

Anybody who mentions the Brown Bummer gets immediately dismissed as a faux-intellectual engaging in nostalgic circle jerks.

You got the balls to do a breakdown of Louis like you did for Ali?

[ShoulderRoll]

This is exactly how I see it. Well put. I’ve seen all his fights multiple times. He didn’t have short arms for his height. Still I understand that he had shorter arms than most of his opponents who were taller. He didn’t have proportionally long arms like a lot of tall heavies did, but they were not short for his height. The guy had size 13.5 shoes. Lennox had long arms for his height for example. The truth is lots of fighters shorter than their opponents have longer arms than their opponents at all sorts of weights. Sometimes it’s crazy counter intuitive. It’s not as common at HW level though of course as heights, reach and weights can vary the most.
Tyson loved to have a bit of space and slam In with a one two. Always looked for the ref to separate so he could do it again. He rarely fought to get out. He always looked to the ref in the clinch. He took more shots in the clinch than he dished out. He was the opposite of violent on the inside, nor was he dirty, early in his career anyway. He was a mid range fighter like you said. He could explode in with both hands. He cycled through his combos until something landed. He was proactive not reactive. He looks the same in all his fights. Does all the same things. Everyone knew what to expect. He never changed anything no matter who he fought. His wasent a natural counter puncher either. He moved his head proactively not reactively. Evander slipped punches. Tyson came in moving it, at least early in fights. His mythical head movement is really more of a thing that people see in his training videos than in actual fights. Even the slipping and counters he loves to show to this day aren’t anywhere as apparent in his fights. His jumping to different angles look great on a bag, but he never boxed circles around anyone. After a couple rounds he had some of the flattest ever. He’d put up his guard and then slam in again. Rarely ever jab. He was great at what he did. He was faster and hit harder than his opponents so why people think he was always at a disadvantage I don’t know.
I love Mike. We all do. But his footwork, head movement, jab, counters, is what fans want to believe as great. He never improved. He never changed anything. He threw hard with both hands. Had great combos. Had a good chin. Good stamina.
All anyone has to do is watch all his fights objectively and it’s plain as day. He was great but as obvious as any fighter out there in what he was going to do. Nobody hits the hardest, fastest, and has the best footwork and best head movement, best counters etc. lol There’s a reason the biggest upset in boxing history happened to Mike Tyson and nobody else!!

There's so much wrong with this post. You must be watching his fights post-Kevin Rooney.

Rarely ever jab? His slip jab was one of his trademark moves.

[dreamroom]

My pick is Joe Louis, who is yours?

My thoughts exactly. I tend to drift between him and Ali. Today I'm team Louis. That right hand lead...wow!!

[DeeMoney]

He was a slow, stiff plodding bum.

Anybody who mentions the Brown Bummer gets immediately dismissed as a faux-intellectual engaging in nostalgic circle jerks.

Assuming you are right, how is most of that relevant to his skills?

As you broke down with Ali, he was successful due to his athletic ability; which, as noted, was not part of his skill set. But then your breakdown of Louis is to primarily call out his lack of athleticism, which is not the topic at hand.

Its essentially a form of double speak being used in your arguments when taken as a whole.

[dreamroom]

Didnt really throw left hooks either,he was basically left jab. right cross,"the old one two ,"as it used to be called .He had an excellent right uppercut though.

He wasn't known as a big left hook guy, but he was picture perfect with all 4 basic punches. Watch both Conn knockouts. As you said, the 1 - 2 was his bread-and-butter. In Louis Conn 1, his 1-2 put Conn on ***** street, and his rear uppercut - lead hook - rear hook put him in the dream room. In the 2nd fight, again, the 1 - 2, followed by the rear uppercut - lead hook. Every punch fundamentally sound, tight and crisp. I would say his boxing fundamentals were the best in history as well. No wasted motion, great stance, very subtle feints while staying offline, a work of art. You're right, it ain't close at all.

[The Old LefHook]

Ali lacked power because he threw arm punches due to poor technique and weight transitions.

He had fast feet and flashy showmanship which people confuse for good footwork. In reality, it was inefficient resulting in premature fatigue, most evident in the 70s, and made him unable to sit down on punches.

You mentioned the fact he was a head-hunter with an arsenal that almost only consisted of a jab and a cross.

But how about his inability to fight effectively on the front foot (e.g. the Young robbery) or need to step in with his jab making him predictable to time (e.g. the entire Norton trilogy)?

Where were his variety of feints, probes and level changes? All he really had was his very occasional step in hand feint to mask his jab, but you need way more layers than that to be the best outboxer to ever live, fast feet and a good (yet overrated) jab are not enough.

His style in general was unorthodox and only really effective due to the athleticism and physical advantages he held over his contemporaries.

Do you think he would get away with constantly pulling his head back on the line against fighters much taller and longer than him? Man could not judge his range well against 5'10 73" Frazier's left hook

If you believe Ali is more technically proficient or "complete" than the likes of Holmes, Tyson, Wlad, Fury, Usyk, etc., YDKSAB!

Also, "Clay" may have been Ali's athletic prime, but he had absolutely no inside game then and no clue how to fight southpaws.

Even 70s Ali could only excessively clinch and half nelson his opponent on the inside. But he did develop a lead right hand for the open stance matchup, however, his style still required him to circle into the power hand of the southpaw to get his jab off.

Imagine that against Usyk! He would be slipping that jab like a pendulum and walking Ali onto left hand counters without even needing to try.

You are pretty green. Why did you repeat what others said and act like it was original? Boxing Scene has a section made or guys like you. It is called NSB. I am hoping you will love it.