Who Was The Most Complete Heavyweight Champ Skill Wise?

[Blond Beast]

People are entitled to feel however they want about Mike Tyson.

But when analyzing his style let's not deal with feelings but with facts.

He didn't jab? This is just one round from one fight, count how many jabs you see him throw:

Just read an article in Ring magazine. It talked about punch stats for the at the time upcoming exhibition between Mike and Roy.
For the analysis it chose to use what they considered Mikes “Prime” as fifteen Compubox tracked fights from Berbick to the second Razor Ruddock fights.
Ask yourself how many punches you think Mike threw per round? Does he through more than the average number for a HW? He’s so fast and aggressive after all right? How many jabs? More than average?
It’s says “typical” HW averages 44.6 punches per round, Mike Tyson 34 per round, surprised?
It says the HW average is 20.5 jab attempts and 5 landed. Mike averaged 11.1 jabs thrown and a 3.2 landed. Surprised?
To his credit he landed 28.8% of his jabs, %2.4 higher than the average, but if he threw more you could expect that % to drop.
I don’t know what his jab stats are after this career segment. He had some short fights and longer fights. At the same time I don’t think anyone claims that his jab became a more effective weapon for him. I don’t think he threw more punches per round later in his career but things can be counter intuitive. He certainly was not as effective in any aspect.
Make of this as you will. I’m not surprised of any of these numbers. I’ve seen all his fights numerous times. Huge fan. Are you surprised? Are they close to what you would have guessed?
Mike hit hard as hell. He was never going to be a volume puncher no matter what people want to remember. If he was such a great inside fighter and it’s where he actually wanted to be then his numbers would be higher, cause volume is the nature of an inside fighter.
I take feelings out of my analysis. May the best man win is the most important thing in boxing. In a sport where you get punched in the head I hate to see anyone get robbed even if I despise them as a person. Top guys get paid millions, it’s not my job to make excuses for them. Yet Excuses get you rematches in this sport. They cause intrigue. Firing your trainers gets you some sort of new life. Now Stars get to come in second even though they are the challenger.
My old man told me a guy named Evander Holyfield will knock out Mike Tyson the day after Tyson beat Spinks. My brother told me Tyson Fury will become HW champ after watching his pro debut. Getting things wrong can also be the best part of boxing. It brings you back to watch. It’s what the sports sells… possibility.
I love Mike and being “overrated” is the best compliment. It’s means you are beloved. The alternative is much worse. Style, intrigue, marketability, physique, money, that’s part of selling anything. It’s prize fighting. Mike never outperformed his hype all in all which shows just how hype he was. Awesome. His odds were always skewed too far in most of his fights.

[Ivich]

Agree most of the way - try not to take it personally. No doubt Corbett brought more respectability to the the game but I think it more important that Sullivan made the entire nation take notice. Two different points but I agree yous is valid.

I would not put Johnson in there by any means. He was bad for Boxing, and set black fighters back an entire generation. He had an opportunity to change the world but his behavior made it impossible for the reformers to move on his behalf, so is my opinion.

Louis on the other hand taught the American people (the non racist ass holes) to accept and respect the physical prowess of a black athlete. I believe that opened the door for all other American sport to begin desegregation. I believe no Louis, no Jackie Robinson. Baseball wouldn't have ended segregation until the late 1950s (post Brown v School Board) if Louis hadn't paved the way.

I would argue that it was Dempsey who brought about the first big purses for fighters not Ali. Ali and Frazier benefited from the door Dempsey, Tunney, and Rickard opened.

But let's not beat each other up about this, it's just opinion and I meant no disrespect.

* Sometime back I created a list of the ten who I thought were the most important to the progress of boxing and Corbett was on my list for two reasons, the one you suggested and also he taught the game that technique was now mandatory, no longer would mere power and toughness be enough.

I'm not taking it personal they are only our respective opinions.
Johnson wasnt in boxing to promote black fighters he was in it to make himself rich.There were plenty of black fighters around then Walcott,Gans ,Childs ,Byers,Martin,Langford,McVey,Jeannette,
,what did they do for civil rights?
Louis was responsible for getting the US army desegregated when he fought exhibitions in the UK and with Truman Gibson got Robinson into Officers Training.

[QueensburyRules]

Davis couldn't deliver on British recognition; the blockade runners were kept in Liverpool port once the Southern real money (speice) dried up; he never united the South encountering resistance as far west as Arkansas and east as Georigia. What accomplishments could you possibly be speaking of?

Longstreet was Lee's 'Old Work Horse' and was a major instrument in every one of Lee's early victories, and had Lee listened to Longstreet on day two, Gettysburg may have been a Southern victory or at least just a marginal defeat, instead of complete failure it was.

Even Jefferson Davis thought his own effort was wanting.

He doesn't belong next to those other two generals, Longstreet does.

P.S. I won't lambast the 50+ Davis for marrying his 15 year old second cousin (actually that's kind of OK with me, LOL) but I won't abide a man who spends his last years selling life insurance.

Selling insurance! First I'd open my wrists before I would stoop to selling insurance.

BTW You know I was a teacher, what did you do for a living? You don't seem to be a government man. Sales, craft, sports, or management? I am assuming you weren't a "doctor, lawyer, or Indian chief," so was it "tinker, tailor, soldier, sailor"?

- - Never stated Davis was any more than what he was, a politician who served at high levels in the Fed before the war.

He was also a military vet who served well in the Mexican War with Lee and Grant, Lee being particularly invaluable for his engineering. It was Lee that Lincoln first turned to lead the Union forces. Grant was more than a bit cloddish, but very steady who learned well from his mistakes who eventually took over the early bedraggled Union forces. Terrible horseman in the age of the Horse, I mean he's lucky to have survived the horse which is where he developed his alcohol dependence to relieve the pain. I have his autobio written as a cancer riddled, enfeebled old man bankrupt from accountant fraud. Mark Twain who was no stranger to financial setbacks and tragedy who was bigger than 100 Dallases back then financed him and published him.

Highly recommended where we see the first black Union troops under Grant who did quite well before Grant was promoted to #1. Oddly under MacArthur in Korea, black troops faltered badly until they were integrated with regular troops, and prob solved, a topic for sociology 101 race study for you to lead.

[billeau2]

I think Sonny Liston and Jimmy Young belong in this conversation for most "skilled" as in having technical abilities and showing them in the ring. Along with these two I think Tunney and Louis belong. Finally JJ!

All these men when broken down show the use and application of footwork, angles, and distancing. They show form on punching, parrying (JJ and Young), with Young his counter punching specifically... Holyfield COULD be in this conversation IF he had BOXED more! and not liked to slug it out so much!

Not saying these guys were the best because they were the most skilled... Ali and and a few others would have to be in on that one.