Telegraphing and Punching: Some Comments to consider for discussion

[billeau2]

- - U telegraphing U meandering, wandering, ever searching, nay, beseeching the Holy Grail of The One & Only Truth again?

Lol Yes I am. Ok QueenB: Do you think a clever, very intelligent Pugilist like Schmelling, could find a way to get a read on Louis' Cross? Schmelling had his sights set on what he would do to Louis... But avoiding, having a way to deal with that cross would really be an issue.

What do you think? Its valid to say "no way!" lol

[billeau2]

GUys:

Here is a breakdown of the fight... There are many, pick any one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-Rb...l=ReemusBoxing

Pay attention to the devil in the details. Specifically, Schmelling would not be able to have success if he himself can be countered by the cross after Louis is hit. Schmelling simply did not have the power and needed accumulation. So what does Schmelling do? Schmelling fights off the back leg, but he does so in a manner where he is right in Louis' range. If Louis extended his cross at Max, and Max did not move, Louis should just connect.

This is important, it is one of the things combat theory and practice deal with at more than a cursory level. It is integral to swordsmanship as well... to really get the opponent to cut, he has to believe you are in range... Basically, Schmelling knew that if he was going to trick Joe into throwing his left hook/jab...particularly the jab, Louis would have to believe that Schmelling was in range for the cross.

THAT WAS THE TELEGRAPH! When Louis got unsure, like many trained pugilists, he would lead in with a jab... Control the jab and the distance, you control the opponent. The telegraph was making Louis go into a habit... a habit is predictable. The habit being the need to set the table with the jab, which could be timed. If you watch carefully Louis even had success with the hook when he threw it straight with no set up! But habits!! Louis goes back to trying to set the cross and everytime he sees Schmelling just in range he throws that jab.

So why does it make sense for Schmelling to be "JUST" in range? Again... you have to understand certain things about combat that are very subtle! The fastest way to avoid a punch is not to move the arms, it is to move either the whole body, or the part of the body attacked by the punch. All Schmelling has to do is lean back an inch or so more on his backfoot and Louis' cross misses, or loses most of its power. TRY IT! Get with a friend and pad up... Try to deal with a fasr punch by blocking... Ouch! Now try to either move as you see the punch develop, or just **** your head off line by inches... Easier isn't it?

Schmelling knew his fighting distance. He ultimately set up off the back foot, just out of range, because he knew he had to deal with Louis' cross. The telegraph that he depended on was a habit that is part of boxing... a habit that usually works to the fighters advantage... BUT like all habits, can be used against one. That habit is to work off the jab. When Louis threw the jab if Schmelling could time it he would make Louis hesitate... Once Louis hesitated, Schmelling could avoid a punch that was inevitable... But he had to trick Louis into throwing the precursor and the punch...

So when I tell people that Schmelling caught Louis because of a telegraph regarding the cross... This is what I am referring to. Levels to analyzing the game... Agree, or disagree, that was the point being made.

What won that fight for Max was setting up properly, distance wise, off the back leg, to receive the cross from Louis. Like Hollyfield did to TYson years later... instead of going backwards, meeting the attack at a preset distance... With Holly it was going in and throwing Tyson onto his back triangulation point,,, off balance, so the punch had no power... with Schmelling it was being right there to be hit, and attacking the lead hand so Louis hesitated and depended on the very thing (the jab) that Schmelling could control prior to the release of the punch.

[them_apples]

GUys:

Here is a breakdown of the fight... There are many, pick any one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-Rb...l=ReemusBoxing

Pay attention to the devil in the details. Specifically, Schmelling would not be able to have success if he himself can be countered by the cross after Louis is hit. Schmelling simply did not have the power and needed accumulation. So what does Schmelling do? Schmelling fights off the back leg, but he does so in a manner where he is right in Louis' range. If Louis extended his cross at Max, and Max did not move, Louis should just connect.

This is important, it is one of the things combat theory and practice deal with at more than a cursory level. It is integral to swordsmanship as well... to really get the opponent to cut, he has to believe you are in range... Basically, Schmelling knew that if he was going to trick Joe into throwing his left hook/jab...particularly the jab, Louis would have to believe that Schmelling was in range for the cross.

THAT WAS THE TELEGRAPH! When Louis got unsure, like many trained pugilists, he would lead in with a jab... Control the jab and the distance, you control the opponent. The telegraph was making Louis go into a habit... a habit is predictable. The habit being the need to set the table with the jab, which could be timed. If you watch carefully Louis even had success with the hook when he threw it straight with no set up! But habits!! Louis goes back to trying to set the cross and everytime he sees Schmelling just in range he throws that jab.

So why does it make sense for Schmelling to be "JUST" in range? Again... you have to understand certain things about combat that are very subtle! The fastest way to avoid a punch is not to move the arms, it is to move either the whole body, or the part of the body attacked by the punch. All Schmelling has to do is lean back an inch or so more on his backfoot and Louis' cross misses, or loses most of its power. TRY IT! Get with a friend and pad up... Try to deal with a fasr punch by blocking... Ouch! Now try to either move as you see the punch develop, or just **** your head off line by inches... Easier isn't it?

Schmelling knew his fighting distance. He ultimately set up off the back foot, just out of range, because he knew he had to deal with Louis' cross. The telegraph that he depended on was a habit that is part of boxing... a habit that usually works to the fighters advantage... BUT like all habits, can be used against one. That habit is to work off the jab. When Louis threw the jab if Schmelling could time it he would make Louis hesitate... Once Louis hesitated, Schmelling could avoid a punch that was inevitable... But he had to trick Louis into throwing the precursor and the punch...

So when I tell people that Schmelling caught Louis because of a telegraph regarding the cross... This is what I am referring to. Levels to analyzing the game... Agree, or disagree, that was the point being made.

What won that fight for Max was setting up properly, distance wise, off the back leg, to receive the cross from Louis. Like Hollyfield did to TYson years later... instead of going backwards, meeting the attack at a preset distance... With Holly it was going in and throwing Tyson onto his back triangulation point,,, off balance, so the punch had no power... with Schmelling it was being right there to be hit, and attacking the lead hand so Louis hesitated and depended on the very thing (the jab) that Schmelling could control prior to the release of the punch.

I gotta rewatch the fight in its entirety. I keep going back and forth on my opinions of it. While there was a lapse in Louis judgement, It seems as though the fight took a turn for the worse when Schmeling actually just hurt Louis and never let him recover. I think Louis just underestimated him, given the way his career had been up until then, the odds and even the first few rounds.

I know schmeling goes on about throwing a right over Louis jab because he leaves it out too long, but I’m not sold on this being a weakness of Louis or even a clever plan by Schmeling. I think Louis just got lax and Schmeling nailed him.

my reason being the right hand over the jab is a very classic counter and Louis would have known about it. Most good fighters shot their jabs out but were consistently read to roll or duck a right hand counter. Obv when fatigue sets in then it becomes more difficult.

[The Old LefHook]

I agree with degrees of telegraphing.

A lefhook is usually launched with the lef foot forward. If the lef foot is forward, that does not mean a lefhook is coming, but it could be.

The least telegraphed lefhook I have seen belonged to Mickey Walker. He fought Schmeling, too. It looked about like Duran against Bob Foster would have. No telegraph on Mickey's lefhook though. Particularly sneaky.

[billeau2]

I gotta rewatch the fight in its entirety. I keep going back and forth on my opinions of it. While there was a lapse in Louis judgement, It seems as though the fight took a turn for the worse when Schmeling actually just hurt Louis and never let him recover. I think Louis just underestimated him, given the way his career had been up until then, the odds and even the first few rounds.

I know schmeling goes on about throwing a right over Louis jab because he leaves it out too long, but I’m not sold on this being a weakness of Louis or even a clever plan by Schmeling. I think Louis just got lax and Schmeling nailed him.

my reason being the right hand over the jab is a very classic counter and Louis would have known about it. Most good fighters shot their jabs out but were consistently read to roll or duck a right hand counter. Obv when fatigue sets in then it becomes more difficult.

Dude... Great minds are in the same gutter One of my first points to the troll of the month when he went in on me about Schmelling and the telegraph, was to point out how common this strategy and technique was back when boxers developed technique and strategy to that level... and smart fighters would be aware of this... yes, it is hardly earth shattering and one of the things that puts me in conflict (I suppose) with those who are satisfied with that explanation for the loss, is I can see how deliberate Schmelling positions himself while fighting mostly off the back foot. IT may even be subconscious but Max was very aware of where he was in relation to Louis' cross and had incentive to challenge the jab because it came to signal when Louis was setting up for the cross.

[billeau2]

I agree with degrees of telegraphing.

A lefhook is usually launched with the lef foot forward. If the lef foot is forward, that does not mean a lefhook is coming, but it could be.

The least telegraphed lefhook I have seen belonged to Mickey Walker. He fought Schmeling, too. It looked about like Duran against Bob Foster would have. No telegraph on Mickey's lefhook though. Particularly sneaky.

Dempsey had a beauty also, but Dempsey also usually was coming foward hard... which would disguise any telegraph, if there was one for his hook. Dempsey could throw short and get tremendous force...

Tommy Morrison had a beauty also.... Cooney would often sweep to the side when he threw his... Very powerful hit though. Many Mexican fighters have awesome left hooks and lead with the punch.

[QueensburyRules]

- - Candy nice, but Emailing U punches quicker than liquor.

[Anthony342]

1. On the contrary, Roy managed to fight fellow greats while relatively young... Hopkins, Toney a twilight McCallum... But eventually as he lost a step he became vulnerable... Tarver was so angry he walked right through Roy's feints lol. I think Roy was great but I don't put him on the short list others do... I think he would have had a problem with guys who could tough it out and deal with his speed to tap that chin.

2. You think he was exposed against Conn? I mean its not an unreasonable opinion to suppose he was having a time of it... Conn was also a lot more than just "fast." He was a great mover and very tough.... technically sound... Thing is, I always maintain that punchers have to master probability and patience. A puncher has to know that no matter what happens, he will get so many bites at the apple during a contest. Joe Louis walked into every fight confident that he would get an opportunity to unload a certain amount of times... and that it may take a while... even into the later rounds... but, that when that chance came, he would take advantage of it.

To me? the fact that it took Louis the later rounds and he could not hit Conn early is one of the best arguments for the championship rounds lol. 15 rounds! Anything less you put the puncher at a great disadvantage.

I have not watched a lot of Yoka to be honest. But I think guys who come up through the Amateur ranks are limited. There are exceptions. The Cubans always have had technical chops to spare... And great fighters rise above... Usyk may reset back to basic amatuer positions, but he has mastered head, body movements, angles, and timing in a way that supercedes that basis.

All the guys coming up have to go through each other and not get exposed... Deal with setbacks, like Dubois, etc... They look great until they deal with adversity.

True, but they can barely last 10 anymore. Did you see the Gatti-Ward trilogy? All three of those went 10.

[billeau2]

True, but they can barely last 10 anymore. Did you see the Gatti-Ward trilogy? All three of those went 10.

Sure did! well part of being exposed is can you last 10 or so rounds in a dogfight?

[The Old LefHook]

Dempsey had a beauty also, but Dempsey also usually was coming foward hard... which would disguise any telegraph, if there was one for his hook. Dempsey could throw short and get tremendous force...

Tommy Morrison had a beauty also.... Cooney would often sweep to the side when he threw his... Very powerful hit though. Many Mexican fighters have awesome left hooks and lead with the punch.

As far as I know, none of the guys you mentioned had the devastating triple lefhook. Chavez was the master of it. He even threw quadruple hooks.