What was the catalyst that helped make boxing widely popular in the states?

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  • Willow The Wisp
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    #21
    Originally posted by Marchegiano
    My quick answer is the 1820s-40s American anti-immigration movement that highlighted boxing as a violent european sport that is unfit for America similar to how the border wall makes Mexico way more popular and spoken about now than it was when I was a child.








    It has to begin with Molyneaux because Molyneaux is why black men kept going to England for fights after Molyneaux. Not much flow of white american interest in boxing but a good flow of black americans coming to England trying to meet Richmond. Langham and Oliver would train a few but from memory even those dudes came to meet Bill they just didn't get on well.

    Meanwhile, on the white side of things the English boxing industry has grown tired of the way champions abuse their titles. So the Englishmen set up an all European title fight in the US.

    In vague terms we could call both eras 1820s-30s

    Right around the time Ireland is kicking off their great Irish invasion of the US. Bringing with them, boxing.

    In my own opinion this is your source for the popularization of boxing in the United States. There was boxing prior, there is training coming in from England prior, but the public's interest is low. When English Burke fought Irish O'Rourke most of the audience was European. It was a means of avoiding the English champion's demands. The black fellas coming to England to learn boxing and make coin fought in England. It's not much fan fair stateside for them.

    See, everyone who is American know we had a bit of a struggle with my ancestors coming here being all Irish and ****. Dirty lazy drunken violent leprechauns and what have you. Irishmen like boxing. Irishmen use boxing as a means to make money and settle disputes.

    The Young Americans, similar to like a Tea Party, not a political party per-se more like a party in a party. Young Americans were anti-immigration and often used boxing as proof of European immigration ruining good wholesome American values.

    It wasn't boxing writers who followed guys like Yankee Sullivan around the US to print all his exploits. It was dudes more similar to Alex Jones, Tucker Carlson, or Anderson Cooper. Dudes whose job is to stir **** for views.

    That made boxing super popular

    Tom Hyer made boxing okay. Because Tom Hyer was a Young American and something like the logic of using boxing to prove superiority over the Europeans took root.

    Now we're in the 1840s

    Right around the time Bill Fuller and Aaron Molyneaux began their training facilities open to the public. Fuller was first and served more rich white clients. Hewlett by the mid 1850s was training black men in boxing and was pretty popular on the sparring circuit.

    Sparring was not yet a standard in training for practice. Sparring was just testing. Both Fuller and Hewlett sought to make sparring its own sport. Boxing is still to the finish but sparring was done by points. This is the birth of the points system.

    This is what made boxing popular enough in the USA to have a sizeable industry worth mention in England. We had a belt, public interest, trainers, and fighters now and could put on all American shows without any Europeans. I say we because I am American but my folks wouldn't be yet. So I guess they is more correct.

    The birth of the World title rolls on in by 1860s and imo it the main focus of big time boxing until at least the 1870s. America had become so important English dudes fight for American titles but wasn't big enough to outright control boxing.

    1870s is when Mace began his let's teach the world boxing campaign, which just made boxing huger and got Australia and Canada more up to snuff, the raise and fall of Joe Goss, and the whole maybe we should use gloves and points in boxing and sparring for practice bit. I believe mostly done by Mace.

    Joe Goss was pretty popular, even though he's English he was well known in America and even featured in some play or some such nonesense.

    Paddy Ryan whoops Goss's ass

    John L whoops Paddy's ass.

    The rest is pretty well covered and seem well known here.





    I don't think you have much of any interest in America if not for fear mongering.

    Cricket?

    Rugby?

    Y'all know I can go on for a minute like that. America has proven for centuries she does not give a damn about European sports and far, far, less than other former European colonies. There's no reason to believe without American immigration fear making it more popular and focused on the mainstream boxing would have been any more popular in the USA than soccer, darts, and pool. Sports most don't watch habitually here.
    Good post much there to find interesting.

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    • QueensburyRules
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      #22
      Originally posted by Ivich

      Listen ****** Rector created the Veriscope camera!

      "Veriscope was an early film studio which produced The Corbett-Fitzsimmons Fight (1897), directed by Enoch J. Rector.

      Veriscope was a large, human-powered camera created by Enoch Rector. The camera operators were inside the camera, which was a tight wooden structure.[1]

      The term is also used for the widescreen 63mm film format used to produce this feature film, which was about 100 minutes long.
      Edison created the Kinetograph camera which was not used for either the Fitz v Maher fight or the Fitz Corbett fight,let that sink into your lonely little brain cell!

      The Kinetoscope Exhibiting Company had gone bust by this time. Rector would hook up with a Dallas-based promoter named Dan Stuart going forward in a concern called the Veriscope Company. Stuart’s plan was to arrange a title fight between Jim Corbett and loud-mouthed contender Bob Fitzsimmons and to have Rector film it with his new apparatus. Ticket sales to the contest would thus be only the start of the financial bonanza. They would then be able to show the film of the fight again and again to paying customers all around the country.

      The initial plan was to hold the contest in a gigantic arena in Dallas, Texas, billed as the second largest in history, surpassed only by the Coliseum in Rome. Construction was already underway when the Texas legislature passed a law against prizefighting and the venue had to be relocated. It was now becoming increasingly difficult to hold a prizefight due to the rise of moral forces and resulting anti-fight legislation. Stuart was not easily discouraged, however. After a herculean effort, he succeeded in organizing a bout between contenders Bob Fitzsimmons and Peter Maher near Langtry, Texas, on a Rio Grande sandbar just across the Mexican border. Ticket sales were abysmal, for to prevent interference the contest’s location had to be kept secret until the last minute. But that wouldn’t matter if Rector could record it. The plan was to show the resulting film on a truly gigantic Kinetoscope that would hold a three-minute loop of film, a monster fifteen feet long and equipped with five peephole ports along its length so that five customers could simultaneously watch. Had this device been built, it would have pushed the Kinetoscope as far as it could go.

      Rector’s attempt to film the Fitz-Maher fight ended in failure. The day was too overcast to get a decent exposure on the light-insensitive Blair film he was using and the fight itself did not last even one round, Fitz decking Maher in under two minutes. Rector’s five-person Kinetoscope also never was built, for the projector was now on the rise. Why use costly Kinetoscopes that could accommodate only five people when, with a single projector, you could cater to a whole theater full of people at the same time? Projectors made irresistible business sense.

      It would take more than a year, but Rector would try again, this time at the heavyweight title bout that Dan Stuart arranged between Bob Fitzsimmons and Jim Corbett in Carson City, Nevada on March 17, 1897. He had simplified his Veriscope by this time to make it more reliable and had also acquired more sensitive film stock from George Eastman. It was not the standard 35mm, 1:1.3 aspect ratio film normally associated with the silent era. Instead it was a whopping 63mm wide and had what we would recognize today as a wide-screen format. Rector had it custom-made so that he could place his Veriscope apparatus closer to the action and still encompass the whole boxing ring.7

      The filming of the Corbett-Fitz fight was a tremendous achievement of organization, synchronization, and hard physical work. The three machines inside the Veriscope held 1,200-foot reels of film, enough to film for eight minutes at a rate of twenty-four frames per second. The first machine was started as the fighters entered the ring, one man cranking, two men manually turning the reels. The team on the second machine began cranking four minutes later, then the third after another four minutes. In this way two machines were kept filming at all times, giving Rector a duplicate record of the fight, fourteen rounds of action ending in the stunning “solar plexus blow” that Fitz used to drop Corbett and on into the scrum of bodies that subsequently poured through the ropes. When it was all over, Rector had exposed 21,600 feet of film. In the space of only three years, the movies had been pushed from a mere 50 feet to just over four miles.)



      Notice that Edison's Kinetiscope company had gone bankrupt by the time Rector filmed the fight?





      Got it now?
      No wonder nobody debates with you,they can't possibly learn anything except how to be the village idiot!
      So go away, you waste of space ,if you had double the braincells you have now you would still be a half wit!

      I'm ashamed I wasted so much time on a fool!

      .
      - - Corbett the loud mouth fainting goat Ali hysteric. Bob the stoic let his fists do the Frazier business.

      As to the rest of your hysteric, I rest my case.

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      • Marchegiano
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        #23
        Originally posted by Ivich

        This is your post.

        "March 17, 1897-Fitz vs Corbett in a unification with Thomas Edison Black Mariah Studio providing the first ever full length feature film and blockbuster that turned out to be an International Blockbuster, the first KO "

        AND ITS WRONG!

        Edison's bid for the fight was not successful, he had nothing to do with the fight.
        Just grow a pair and admit you were wrong!
        Adam Pollack is an acclaimed author,referee, boxing coach and Attorney ,numb nuts!? While you are doing that, produce a primary source that states Edison filmed the Corbett v Fitz fight.
        You've a bigger boxing library than either Pollack and myself? Really ,and just how do you know that? I've over200 books on the subject.How about you?
        Fella you're not even remotely amusing anymore,you're just a sad ,pathetic,inadequate ,who mugs himself here on a daily basis.
        Oh gosh this read like I wrote it!

        We'll either get on or hate one another but I'll tell ya now I do respect you.

        Pollack, not so much. That flier I posted in the Johnson-Jeanette thread doesn't exist vis-uh-vi(I americanized it) Pollack.

        I didn't just make it up or pull it out of my ass. I gave my source in that thread and your buddy Adam got the same information. I know, because I told him. It's fine if I'm wrong but nothing in his overpriced book that really brought only **** and no all new to the table addresses Jack Johnson in Russia or the McVey offer.

        The Russian speaking author of the "Black Russian" book I mention could damn well be wrong. Adam Pollack won't address it and so Adam Pollack is a sniveling little ***** ought not brought up like as if you even need third party credential. Stand on your own feet. That prick is a useless **** who pays to play boxing "expert" and simply ignores anything incovient.

        Yes, I am connected to a number of IBRO members. No, they're not all bitches. Adam Pollack is. May was well say you're good friends with Nat Fleischer or some ****. It's not brag-able to know someone who did **** all, uncovered **** all, and reprinted what's well known while kissing his own ass and paying others to kiss it for him. He can eat a ****.


        Now either prove or disprove Johnson in Russia, or, Pollack's **** ass ain't worth **** and your posts are much stronger without mentioning that POS who calls himself historian.

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        • Marchegiano
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          #24
          Originally posted by Willow The Wisp

          Good post much there to find interesting.
          Thanks bud. Boxing always goes in a million directions at once so it sometimes hard to remember everything but I think that's more or less how the early pre-bury era worked out.

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          • billeau2
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            #25
            Originally posted by QueensburyRules

            - - Double Barreled Scattershot Idiocy seems to be your trademark. I said my library ain't restricted to lowbrow boxing, and it is indeed bigger than yours and likely Pollack's combined by a substantial margin.

            Edison was the mover and shaker behind the new kinescope developments centered primarily on the film and format needed for a fight that might last 2 hours or more. Rector was part of his team and sent forth with equipment and film for the Dallas Fitz/Corbett hook up aborted by the Texas Legislature, and later on to Langtry and Judge Roy Bean via more than a month lay over in El Paso, and finally to Carson City where no doubt Edison provided a ghost entity to double team Vitascope as happens in any auctions of note to this day. Of course Rector had a free hand and financial guarantees to insure they got the fight. As always, Edison's equipment was used for the filming, the developing, projection, and it was Edison or other agents in the field first renting the traditional play theaters to show the film while authorizing the building of the first film centric theaters that U idiocy uses for visual pabulum today. What with Jim Jeffries that followed, movie making through fight films were the height of popularity as well as a goldmine. It was several years later when the first "movie" was shown on film that featured actors that made Bronco Billy a huge star, but it was only 12 min.


            And as stated, conditions for Fitz/Maher were evening hours after an arduous escape from El Paso that was staged with alternating gray misty conditions in between breaking sun shine that created a rainbow joining the banks of the Rio Grande back when rainbows were spectacular visual proof of of the beauty of nature and not a gender flag for the usual suspects making a witch's brew over politics.

            Y'er Welcome!!!
            Nice!!!!!! You leayn em queen B!
            Last edited by billeau2; 05-04-2022, 07:18 PM.

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            • Willie Pep 229
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              #26
              I don't want to get in the mix regarding who filmed the fight (Corbett Fitzsimmons) but the camera/film advancements discussed, 35mm or 63mm still didn't measure up to expectations, with Corbett crawling out of frame as he reached for the ropes to pull himself up.

              There is a wonderful story about a Chicago entrepreneur who ran a newspaper advert explaining that Chicago didn't have a projector that could present the film, promising if he could sell enough pre-viewing tickets he woukd use the proceeds and have the projector built.

              He sold enough tickets on a promise to build the projector and create a venue that put him in the 'movie house' business.

              The film had a powerful impact. It caused the production of projectors to occur and the film industry was tooled up to take off.

              If I make up numbers as every good American should . . .

              I would argue that one of every four American city dwellers would likely say the first projected ** film they ever saw was the Corbett-Fitzsimmons fight. But I am making up the numbers. But it certainly was the thing to do in 1897 and the 1890s was the first American generation to experience 'overnight' nationwide cultural trends.

              ** Almost everyone's first exposure to motion pictures came from the nickle machines.

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              • markusmod
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                #27
                I wish it would get back to the same level these days.

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                • Ivich
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                  #28
                  Originally posted by Marchegiano

                  Oh gosh this read like I wrote it!

                  We'll either get on or hate one another but I'll tell ya now I do respect you.

                  Pollack, not so much. That flier I posted in the Johnson-Jeanette thread doesn't exist vis-uh-vi(I americanized it) Pollack.

                  I didn't just make it up or pull it out of my ass. I gave my source in that thread and your buddy Adam got the same information. I know, because I told him. It's fine if I'm wrong but nothing in his overpriced book that really brought only **** and no all new to the table addresses Jack Johnson in Russia or the McVey offer.

                  The Russian speaking author of the "Black Russian" book I mention could damn well be wrong. Adam Pollack won't address it and so Adam Pollack is a sniveling little ***** ought not brought up like as if you even need third party credential. Stand on your own feet. That prick is a useless **** who pays to play boxing "expert" and simply ignores anything incovient.

                  Yes, I am connected to a number of IBRO members. No, they're not all bitches. Adam Pollack is. May was well say you're good friends with Nat Fleischer or some ****. It's not brag-able to know someone who did **** all, uncovered **** all, and reprinted what's well known while kissing his own ass and paying others to kiss it for him. He can eat a ****.


                  Now either prove or disprove Johnson in Russia, or, Pollack's **** ass ain't worth **** and your posts are much stronger without mentioning that POS who calls himself historian.
                  Johnson is believed to have got the better of Jeannette in their last fight and my source wasnt Pollack it was Denzil Batchelor,but box rec was convenient so I used it.
                  IBRO means jack **** to me just a vanity excercise to make a popularity poll.
                  I'm not impressed by posters slagging off an author who isn't here to defend himself Steve Compton makes a habit of it.and in doing so does himself a disservice.
                  I've corresponded with Adam and he was kind enough to give me an acknowledgement in his 1st vol on Johnson.You're the first to criticize his books that I have read. I will say I disagreed with his scoring of both the Josh Taylor v Jake Catteral fight and the Katie Taylor v Amanda Serrano one.But,I've never met the guy and am not likely to.
                  I can get along with anyone, until they diss me ,I don't think I have any, or will make many friends here,that's okay I have enough already.
                  If I worried about being popular I would not present some of the less positive of facts about Marciano that's a sure way to get hated lol!
                  All I know of Johnson in Russia is his own account in his bio ,which no doubt was highly romanticised.
                  I've always stood on my own to feet sometimes with painful consequences for me ,such is life.
                  Last edited by Ivich; 05-05-2022, 06:17 AM.

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                  • Ivich
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                    #29
                    Originally posted by Willie Pep 229
                    I don't want to get in the mix regarding who filmed the fight (Corbett Fitzsimmons) but the camera/film advancements discussed, 35mm or 63mm still didn't measure up to expectations, with Corbett crawling out of frame as he reached for the ropes to pull himself up.

                    There is a wonderful story about a Chicago entrepreneur who ran a newspaper advert explaining that Chicago didn't have a projector that could present the film, promising if he could sell enough pre-viewing tickets he woukd use the proceeds and have the projector built.

                    He sold enough tickets on a promise to build the projector and create a venue that put him in the 'movie house' business.

                    The film had a powerful impact. It caused the production of projectors to occur and the film industry was tooled up to take off.

                    If I make up numbers as every good American should . . .

                    I would argue that one of every four American city dwellers would likely say the first projected ** film they ever saw was the Corbett-Fitzsimmons fight. But I am making up the numbers. But it certainly was the thing to do in 1897 and the 1890s was the first American generation to experience 'overnight' nationwide cultural trends.

                    ** Almost everyone's first exposure to motion pictures came from the nickle machines.
                    We know who created,directed ,and filmed the fight,it was EJ Rector and his team.That is undeniable.

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                    • Ivich
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                      #30
                      Originally posted by QueensburyRules

                      - - Corbett the loud mouth fainting goat Ali hysteric. Bob the stoic let his fists do the Frazier business.

                      As to the rest of your hysteric, I rest my case.
                      We are done, conversing with a fool brings neither profit nor pleasure to me, so Bye Bye!

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