When did the fight game change: Cuts?

[DeeMoney]

How do you see money affecting a stoppage? I have heard statements made about letting a fight go an extra round because it was a title fight, but not sure what you mean about money.

I think he's implying that if a certain fighter who is cut is also the "A-side" they will let the fight go longer; as that fighter generates more money and they want them to win- and continue to be the cash cow

[kafkod]

- - Prob with your logic is false assumptions.

Ali as a wholesome American Gold Medalist was just the thing needed to salvage American Boxing savaged during the Mafia era that Liston represented as the ultimate apex predator put in place by the mob.

Fights can always be arranged both then and now with convenient officiating and Commish oversight. Clay was never perceived as weak then because most had not seen his bouts that were largely cut stoppages, but in highly publicized Cooper and Jones bouts, ie the best contenders he ever faced, he looked like death warmed over, hence 50-1 odds.

I would think it would be intuitive for any cognizant being to see that the sooner boxing rid itself of Sonny the sooner they could sell boxing in the new TV age since they couldn't even make any money betting on Sonny.

And that's what happened save Ali threw a monkey wrench in the works with NOI and Malcom and Elijah, so the plan didn't pan out as anticipated. Net result was Ali was never popular until his Vietnam stance and the rest history...amen

It's not a false assumption though. Liston was a massive favourite to beat Ali, or Clay, as he was then known.

And even before he joined up with the Black ******s, Cassius Clay was not popular nor perceived as a wholesome gold medal winner. He was disliked by the boxing establishment and by most boxing fans because of his arrogant demeanour and loud mouthed, braggadocios manner.

Instead of fast tracking Ali to get rid of Liston, surely it would have made more sense to fix his title challenge against the hugely popular Floyd Patterson and stop him from becoming champion in the first place.

[QueensburyRules]

It's not a false assumption though. Liston was a massive favourite to beat Ali, or Clay, as he was then known.

And even before he joined up with the Black ******s, Cassius Clay was not popular nor perceived as a wholesome gold medal winner. He was disliked by the boxing establishment and by most boxing fans because of his arrogant demeanour and loud mouthed, braggadocios manner.

Instead of fast tracking Ali to get rid of Liston, surely it would have made more sense to fix his title challenge against the hugely popular Floyd Patterson and stop him from becoming champion in the first place.

- - At worst Clay was a minor irritant to some, but comedy gold to others with his doggerel poetry. Yes, without Cooper and Jones miserable performances, he'd still be the underdog vs Sonny, but not so big.

If you notice at the weighin for the first fight, Clay holds up 8 fingers for 8rd prediction. Sonny holds up typical V 2 finger salute for 2 rounds. When that didn't pan out, Sonny was pulled in 8 with former two rd bets covered.

The fact that Ali earns a DQ in his shameless actions, fighting with Walcott while trying to kick Sonny in the head in any other jurisdiction in the rematch, but didn't tells you all you need to know about Sonny getting purposely axed.

[Willie Pep 229]

- - At worst Clay was a minor irritant to some, but comedy gold to others with his doggerel poetry. Yes, without Cooper and Jones miserable performances, he'd still be the underdog vs Sonny, but not so big.

If you notice at the weighin for the first fight, Clay holds up 8 fingers for 8rd prediction. Sonny holds up typical V 2 finger salute for 2 rounds. When that didn't pan out, Sonny was pulled in 8 with former two rd bets covered.

The fact that Ali earns a DQ in his shameless actions, fighting with Walcott while trying to kick Sonny in the head in any other jurisdiction in the rematch, but didn't tells you all you need to know about Sonny getting purposely axed.

???? ". . . with two rd bets covered" ????

I don't understand your reference to eight rounds (other than Clay's prediction.)

Liston RTD in six. Bookies paid off on the 7th round, because the initial call was the 7th round.

Technically speaking, Liston's corner doesn't wave off the fight until after the bell for the 7th round sounds, thus meaning Liston failed to rise for the 7th round. He didn't leave his stool with the bell; didn't come up to scratch. ****

But that is too technical and Boxrec today calls it as "RTD in six."

Most newspapers the next day went with the 7th round as did Cowsell in his post fight interview (I think.)

IMO The first fight wasn't fixed; the second fight was a cluster pluck and Liston wasn't sure his proper role, i.e. he was waiting for a count. Fight should have continued.

Or maybe Liston chose to quit on his own. They say after the delay his heart wasn't in it anymore.

IMO Neither fight was fixed. At the time of the fight it was the government who was being accused of murdering Macolm X and the NOI. The NOI weren't yet thought to be mobsters. But maybe Liston already knew more than we did so he laid down.

**** A similar dispute broke out over the Dempsey-Willard go with some bookies paying off on the third and others the fourth. Eventually Tex Rickard decided the mess and the newspapers confirned the third round about a week later.

[markusmod]

How do you see money affecting a stoppage? I have heard statements made about letting a fight go an extra round because it was a title fight, but not sure what you mean about money.

If Wallin had those bad cuts, fight would have been stopped ASAP. But Fury was allowed to cross that finish line because the Wilder rematch was booked for February.

[QueensburyRules]

???? ". . . with two rd bets covered" ????

I don't understand your reference to eight rounds (other than Clay's prediction.)

Liston RTD in six. Bookies paid off on the 7th round, because the initial call was the 7th round.

Technically speaking, Liston's corner doesn't wave off the fight until after the bell for the 7th round sounds, thus meaning Liston failed to rise for the 7th round. He didn't leave his stool with the bell; didn't come up to scratch. ****

But that is too technical and Boxrec today calls it as "RTD in six."

Most newspapers the next day went with the 7th round as did Cowsell in his post fight interview (I think.)

IMO The first fight wasn't fixed; the second fight was a cluster pluck and Liston wasn't sure his proper role, i.e. he was waiting for a count. Fight should have continued.

Or maybe Liston chose to quit on his own. They say after the delay his heart wasn't in it anymore.

IMO Neither fight was fixed. At the time of the fight it was the government who was being accused of murdering Macolm X and the NOI. The NOI weren't yet thought to be mobsters. But maybe Liston already knew more than we did so he laid down.

**** A similar dispute broke out over the Dempsey-Willard go with some bookies paying off on the third and others the fourth. Eventually Tex Rickard decided the mess and the newspapers confirned the third round about a week later.

- - How could a manually rung bell malfunction? It would take an all time HOF oaf oaf for such a thing. That was as clear a 1st round slaughter as ever existed. Dempsey and Kearns both thought so because they left the ring and had to be recalled with what, a 3 minute overall delay?

Anyway, emboldened was an error on my part in my haste to show the fight was stopped only after the good odds that still existed on a Clay stoppage could be secured after Sonny's 2nd round KO of Clay fizzled.

[BattlingNelson]

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[QueensburyRules]

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- - Clearly towels had not yet been invented at the Turn of the Century.