Top Boxing Writer Ever?

[The Old LefHook]

Na! That was a cheap shot . . . My complaint was against a historian making such a life long claim. You just used a cheap ass platitude to discredit me but didn't touch my argument.

You were not in possession of an argument, sir, but merely trying to arouse one! What Willard said is in the official record. I keep my own record book, so I guess you are allowed to keep your own book of boxers' quotes where you include only what you want them to have said.

[HOUDINI563]

Willard felt he had been “jobbed” way before the Kearns article. However there is no evidence of it. Dempsey can be seen with fairly light wrapping on his hands in close up photos as he sat in his corner. Willard examined Dempseys wrapped hands mid ring. Fleischer watched Dempseys hands being wrapped, You can see Dempsey holding onto the top rope during the fight so he is not holding anything in his palm. Dempsey was a hellacious puncher. Tremendous speed and unparalleled ability to throw his body weight behind his punches equates to serious punching power.

[Willie Pep 229]

You were not in possession of an argument, sir, but merely trying to arouse one! What Willard said is in the official record. I keep my own record book, so I guess you are allowed to keep your own book of boxers' quotes where you include only what you want them to have said.

So a man who believed he was cheated went to the man who cheated him with hat in hand looking for a favor?

Which sounds more likely to tell us the truth, a quote or a man's actions.

What official record would tell us what Willard believed 'his entire life' ?

[Willie Pep 229]

Willard felt he had been “jobbed” way before the Kearns article. However there is no evidence of it. Dempsey can be seen with fairly light wrapping on his hands in close up photos as he sat in his corner. Willard examined Dempseys wrapped hands mid ring. Fleischer watched Dempseys hands being wrapped, You can see Dempsey holding onto the top rope during the fight so he is not holding anything in his palm. Dempsey was a hellacious puncher. Tremendous speed and unparalleled ability to throw his body weight behind his punches equates to serious punching power.

I didn't suggest that Willard first believed that Dempsey's gloves were loaded when Kearns floated the story circa '25 or '26.

I am certain that Kearns' BS certainly made it easier for Willard to buy into the nonsense.

But the issue I took with the article and that Lefy keeps dancing away from is that we can't know if Willard carried this belief with him his entire life.

Especially when his behavior in later years belies that he did.

It is too common for writers to assume that a quote made when one was young, and emotionally distraught constitutes a life long belief.

SEE: Foreman's changing story regarding Zaire.

It is a popular hyperbole to attache 'life long' embitterment to a situation to try and make an event more dramatic.

We are discussing writers and my comments were about the poor writing not Willard. What was in Willard's mind his 'entire life' shouldn't be speculated on if one is purportedly writing history. Especially when Willard's behavior late in life contradicts the claim.

[HOUDINI563]

[QUOTE=Willie Pep 229;n31322993]

I didn't suggest that Willard first believed that Dempsey's gloves were loaded when Kearns floated the story circa '25 or '26.

I am certain that Kearns' BS certainly made it easier for Willard to buy into the nonsense.

But the issue I took with the article and that Lefy keeps dancing away from is that we can't know if Willard carried this belief with him his entire life.

Especially when his behavior in later years belies that he did.

It is too common for writers to assume that a quote made when one was young, and emotionally distraught constitutes a life long belief.

SEE: Foreman's changing story regarding Zaire.

It is a popular hyperbole to attache 'life long' embitterment to a situation to try and make an event more dramatic.

We are discussing writers and my comments were about the poor writing not Willard. What was in Willard's mind his 'entire life' shouldn't be speculated on if one is purportedly writing history. Especially when Willard's behavior late in life contradicts the claim.

True. Who really knows. I found an article years ago from the 50’s where Willard went on and on regarding being jobbed. He asked the interviewer to feel his face and that the bones still moved around. More shocking he brought out a piece of metal from a box he said was what Dempsey carried in his gloves. Once I read this I discounted his entire argument. No chance Dempsey carried anything in his gloves based upon the known eye witness testimony and what one sees with your own eyes.

[Willie Pep 229]

[QUOTE=HOUDINI563;n31323076]

I didn't suggest that Willard first believed that Dempsey's gloves were loaded when Kearns floated the story circa '25 or '26.

I am certain that Kearns' BS certainly made it easier for Willard to buy into the nonsense.

But the issue I took with the article and that Lefy keeps dancing away from is that we can't know if Willard carried this belief with him his entire life.

Especially when his behavior in later years belies that he did.

It is too common for writers to assume that a quote made when one was young, and emotionally distraught constitutes a life long belief.

SEE: Foreman's changing story regarding Zaire.

It is a popular hyperbole to attache 'life long' embitterment to a situation to try and make an event more dramatic.

We are discussing writers and my comments were about the poor writing not Willard. What was in Willard's mind his 'entire life' shouldn't be speculated on if one is purportedly writing history. Especially when Willard's behavior late in life contradicts the claim.

True. Who really knows. I found an article years ago from the 50’s where Willard went on and on regarding being jobbed. He asked the interviewer to feel his face and that the bones still moved around. More shocking he brought out a piece of metal from a box he said was what Dempsey carried in his gloves. Once I read this I discounted his entire argument. No chance Dempsey carried anything in his gloves based upon the known eye witness testimony and what one sees with your own eyes.

If the article was written in the 1950s that would contradict my argument, assuming the interview was current to 1950. Suggesting he carried the anger/accusation/excuse with him.

Willard was a mess; he suffered from dementia.

In his most recent biography the writer had a difficult time parsing Willard's many quotes and contradictions.

Willard (late in life) always confirmed Johnson's nonsense/excuse about it being 100 plus degrees in Hanvana (1915) but the author had to deal with the reality that it was actually in the mid 70s with an overcast sky. (As confirmed by newspaper reports in both Cuba and the USA.)

The author finally had to conclude that Willard could no longer parse his own fights and was confusing the Dempsey Ohio fight, where it actually was 100 degrees, with 72 dgrees in Havana.

Willard was susceptible to repeating what he heard and Johnson beat the 'heat' story to death, to such a point that Willard could no longer recognize his own reality.

His short tenure as Dempsey's sales rep is an even sadder story.

Dempsey gave Willard a job, when he was down, as a sales rep for Jack Dempsey's Blended Whiskey.

They recorded a commercial and it took Wiilard all afternoon to get three lines correct. One of his lines would come back to haunt him: "Give me a shot of some of that Jack Dempsey bourbon."

Two days later, in a local New York bar, packed with sports reporters, Willard, within ear shot, approached the bar and asked for a drink. The bar tender wanting to play along with the advertisement replied in a loud clear voice "Would that be a Jack Dempsey Blended Whiskey." Willard shot back, "No, not that crap, give me the good stuff."

Next day the papers were filled with the quote and Dempsey had to sack Willard.

Historically speaking Willard's quotes are not of much value on any topic, even his own fights.

[HOUDINI563]

[QUOTE=Willie Pep 229;n31323567][QUOTE=HOUDINI563;n31323076]

If the article was written in the 1950s that would contradict my argument, assuming the interview was current to 1950. Suggesting he carried the anger/accusation/excuse with him.

Willard was a mess; he suffered from dementia.

In his most recent biography the writer had a difficult time parsing Willard's many quotes and contradictions.

Willard (late in life) always confirmed Johnson's nonsense/excuse about it being 100 plus degrees in Hanvana (1915) but the author had to deal with the reality that it was actually in the mid 70s with an overcast sky. (As confirmed by newspaper reports in both Cuba and the USA.)

The author finally had to conclude that Willard could no longer parse his own fights and was confusing the Dempsey Ohio fight, where it actually was 100 degrees, with 72 dgrees in Havana.

Willard was susceptible to repeating what he heard and Johnson beat the 'heat' story to death, to such a point that Willard could no longer recognize his own reality.

His short tenure as Dempsey's sales rep is an even sadder story.

Dempsey gave Willard a job, when he was down, as a sales rep for Jack Dempsey's Blended Whiskey.

They recorded a commercial and it took Wiilard all afternoon to get three lines correct. One of his lines would come back to haunt him: "Give me a shot of some of that Jack Dempsey bourbon."

Two days later, in a local New York bar, packed with sports reporters, Willard, within ear shot, approached the bar and asked for a drink. The bar tender wanting to play along with the advertisement replied in a loud clear voice "Would that be a Jack Dempsey Blended Whiskey." Willard shot back, "No, not that crap, give me the good stuff."

Next day the papers were filled with the quote and Dempsey had to sack Willard.

Historically speaking Willard's quotes are not of much value on any topic, even his own fights.


There are eye witness reports of Willard’s bout with Johnson that talk of the “blazing sun” during that bout. It could very well have been in the 70’s but fighting under full sun for 25 plus rounds would not have improved ring conditions.

[Willie Pep 229]

[QUOTE=HOUDINI563;n31324162][QUOTE=Willie Pep 229;n31323567]

If the article was written in the 1950s that would contradict my argument, assuming the interview was current to 1950. Suggesting he carried the anger/accusation/excuse with him.

Willard was a mess; he suffered from dementia.

In his most recent biography the writer had a difficult time parsing Willard's many quotes and contradictions.

Willard (late in life) always confirmed Johnson's nonsense/excuse about it being 100 plus degrees in Hanvana (1915) but the author had to deal with the reality that it was actually in the mid 70s with an overcast sky. (As confirmed by newspaper reports in both Cuba and the USA.)

The author finally had to conclude that Willard could no longer parse his own fights and was confusing the Dempsey Ohio fight, where it actually was 100 degrees, with 72 dgrees in Havana.

Willard was susceptible to repeating what he heard and Johnson beat the 'heat' story to death, to such a point that Willard could no longer recognize his own reality.

His short tenure as Dempsey's sales rep is an even sadder story.

Dempsey gave Willard a job, when he was down, as a sales rep for Jack Dempsey's Blended Whiskey.

They recorded a commercial and it took Wiilard all afternoon to get three lines correct. One of his lines would come back to haunt him: "Give me a shot of some of that Jack Dempsey bourbon."

Two days later, in a local New York bar, packed with sports reporters, Willard, within ear shot, approached the bar and asked for a drink. The bar tender wanting to play along with the advertisement replied in a loud clear voice "Would that be a Jack Dempsey Blended Whiskey." Willard shot back, "No, not that crap, give me the good stuff."

Next day the papers were filled with the quote and Dempsey had to sack Willard.

Historically speaking Willard's quotes are not of much value on any topic, even his own fights.


There are eye witness reports of Willard’s bout with Johnson that talk of the “blazing sun” during that bout. It could very well have been in the 70’s but fighting under full sun for 25 plus rounds would not have improved ring conditions.

Ignore the susposed eye witness accounts they are bogus.

The sky was overcast; it rained the day before and there was concern all morning the fight might be postponed because of it.

Willard is dressed on a sweater to keep the chill off and Johnson is bundled up to the neck.

Fans have their coats on with only a very few in shirt sleeves.

There was no blazing sun; but you got to love how JJ could sling the shlt; here we are still buying the BS that the sun cost him his title.

[The Old LefHook]

I've got the deathbed accusations of Willard somewhere. I will have to fetch them up.

[Willie Pep 229]

Focus on the Pep-SRR film instead; or maybe the Marciano-Liston radio broadcast. Willard will be dead a long time no hurry.

I'm really excited about the Pep film, when will Queen confirm its existence?