James Toney Dream Fights

[Willie Pep 229]

- - Logan last outing was an exhibition that saw him beat l'l floydy from pillar to post.

Must be thinking of brother Jake who been turning boxing and the Fury family into a giggle of shytehouse hoes while successfully starting his own promotional company.

Possibly. I couldn't pick either brother out of a police lineup.

Whichever one fought most recently had terrible PPV numbers and investors got screwed. So my guess is we will probably be seeing and hearing less of them.

[IronDanHamza]

1990, Sanderline Williams, the 1st match. Soon after he faced and upset Michael Nunn, a talented, tough middleweight and one of my favorite fighters of that period. Middleweight was chalk-full with Eubank, Benn, Graham, Barkley, McCallum, Collins, Kalambay, Tate, Olajide and Hagler's half brother and 160lb gatekeeper, Robbie Sims.

Toney was a frustrating fighter to follow. He did well to get up off the deck and eke out a close decision over the vastly underrated Reggie Johnson in his frst title defense, mere weeks after the Nunn upset. His second title defense against an invisible foe (who I barely recall) saw Toney the recipient of an unfair advantage on the scales and he prevailed without being stripped of his title. Odd given the cadence of his appearances but congruent with his later claimed "eating disorder". He shined not long after with the underrated Mike McCallum, looking to have won a close, tactical contest. It was damned impressive. After that he looked to have been machine-washed by the ESPN-popular Dave Tiberi, only to steal and undeserved decision. I had Toney, skill-wise, on the 10th floor and Tiberi on the 5th, but James had left the better part of himself in little puddles around the stairmaster in the weeks before.

Toney was compelling in a terrific middleweight era (post-Hagler)

Sanderline Williams? You mean a fight he arguably lost? That is James Toney "At this best and focused" ?

Then Micheal Nunn, a fight he was being totally outboxed in and was well behind on the cards before he pulled out the knock out? You say he lost a close decision to Johnson "mere weeks after the Nunn upset" like those performances were any different from one another. He was soundly outboxed for large portions of the fight in both. The only real difference was he pulled a KO out in one of them and that's then deemed as "amazing" when in reality he looked very poor in both fights despite the results.

These are two fights where he looked poor, and that is your example of when he was "Focused and at this best"? What a baffling observation.

It seems then you hold the idea that he was "at his best and most focused" at Middleweight then, a weight class where he lost to Dave Tiberi, and arguably lost to Williams, Sosa, Johnson and McCallum x2. Very strange.

[Hooded Terror]

Sanderline Williams? You mean a fight he arguably lost? That is James Toney "At this best and focused" ?

Then Micheal Nunn, a fight he was being totally outboxed in and was well behind on the cards before he pulled out the knock out? You say he lost a close decision to Johnson "mere weeks after the Nunn upset" like those performances were any different from one another. He was soundly outboxed for large portions of the fight in both. The only real difference was he pulled a KO out in one of them and that's then deemed as "amazing" when in reality he looked very poor in both fights despite the results.

These are two fights where he looked poor, and that is your example of when he was "Focused and at this best"? What a baffling observation.

It seems then you hold the idea that he was "at his best and most focused" at Middleweight then, a weight class where he lost to Dave Tiberi, and arguably lost to Williams, Sosa, Johnson and McCallum x2. Very strange.

No, no, no. I took your question as a time period point as to when I started watching Tony. Forgive me. Best and most focused a few times at middleweight, to qualify. My eyes used.

Sanderline Williams was the start of my taking note of Toney, 1st match. I saw something in him, controversy aside. Period.

I went on to illustrate the up and down nature, as I perceived it, of Toney's 160lb reign with "Toney was a frustrating fighter to follow".

"Michael Nunn, a talented, tough middleweight and one of my favorite fighters" Toney was being outboxed until he timed and out-foxed the terrific and accomplished Nunn. Sufficient? It would seem suffient enough. Credit for his composure and conditioning, to say nothing of working the leading fighter into any traps used. Beating Nunn was a grand accomplishment.

The johnson fight was a close struggle some six weeks after the Nunn high, yet he managed to get by. Toney got off the deck to nick the win. That's TWO top-10 foes in six weeks. That's not impressive?

McCallum #1 was a terrific performance against a great fighter. #2 was more pedestrian but a close win. Arguably two wins against McCallum

Though I may disagree with your take, I like you confidence. Read my stuff and you'll see I only touched a little on Toney and the era, openly admitting he was hot and cold as he accelerated.

Sufficent response?

[IronDanHamza]

No, no, no. I took your question as a time period point as to when I started watching Tony. Forgive me. Best and most focused a few times at middleweight, to qualify. My eyes used.

Sanderline Williams was the start of my taking note of Toney, 1st match. I saw something in him, controversy aside. Period.

I went on to illustrate the up and down nature, as I perceived it, of Toney's 160lb reign with "Toney was a frustrating fighter to follow".

"Michael Nunn, a talented, tough middleweight and one of my favorite fighters" Toney was being outboxed until he timed and out-foxed the terrific and accomplished Nunn. Sufficient? It would seem suffient enough. Credit for his composure and conditioning, to say nothing of working the leading fighter into any traps used. Beating Nunn was a grand accomplishment.

The johnson fight was a close struggle some six weeks after the Nunn high, yet he managed to get by. Toney got off the deck to nick the win. That's TWO top-10 foes in six weeks. That's not impressive?

McCallum #1 was a terrific performance against a great fighter. #2 was more pedestrian but a close win. Arguably two wins against McCallum

Though I may disagree with your take, I like you confidence. Read my stuff and you'll see I only touched a little on Toney and the era, openly admitting he was hot and cold as he accelerated.

Sufficent response?

It's not that impressive when he was soundly outboxed for long periods by both Nunn and Johsnon, he argubaly lost to Johnson and was well on his way to losing to Nunn before the KO. He get's credit for both wins, sure. But they were far from impressive performances. Which would contradict the idea that he was "at his best and most focused" at that weight when those performances have no difference to his performances at any other weight where he was suppoedly "less focused and not at his best".

McCallum 1 was a draw, you say he arguably has two wins agaisnt McCallum, which is true. He also arguably has 2 loss's agaisnt McCallum.

If your stance is at his "best and most focused" he was "up and down" that doesn't that directly contradict your stance?

The reality of the situation here is there is no difference between Toney at 160, 168, 175 or Crusier. It's the same fighter.

Sometimes he beat top guys, sometimes he lost to top guys, he was dominated against the elite, and he also lost to D level fighters in his prime. That's the case for every weight he fought at in his prime years.

And one thing he never did at any point in his career, even at his mythical "best and most focused" was dominate a top level fighter.

[Hooded Terror]

It's not that impressive when he was soundly outboxed for long periods by both Nunn and Johsnon, he argubaly lost to Johnson and was well on his way to losing to Nunn before the KO. He get's credit for both wins, sure. But they were far from impressive performances. Which would contradict the idea that he was "at his best and most focused" at that weight when those performances have no difference to his performances at any other weight where he was suppoedly "less focused and not at his best".

McCallum 1 was a draw, you say he arguably has two wins agaisnt McCallum, which is true. He also arguably has 2 loss's agaisnt McCallum.

If your stance is at his "best and most focused" he was "up and down" that doesn't that directly contradict your stance?

The reality of the situation here is there is no difference between Toney at 160, 168, 175 or Crusier. It's the same fighter.

Sometimes he beat top guys, sometimes he lost to top guys, he was dominated against the elite, and he also lost to D level fighters in his prime. That's the case for every weight he fought at in his prime years.

And one thing he never did at any point in his career, even at his mythical "best and most focused" was dominate a top level fighter.

"It's not that impressive when he was soundly outboxed for long periods by both Nunn and Johsnon, he argubaly lost to Johnson and was well on his way to losing to Nunn before the KO. He get's credit for both wins, sure. But they were far from impressive performances." - I'll decide what's impressive to me. We could spin it that Nunn was unimpressive, given his wheels suddenly came off after soundly outboxing Toney for long periods. After dropping Toney in the 2nd round, Johnson somehow managed to not finish Toney or thoroughly convince the judges he deserved the verdict, despite soundly outboxing Toney for long periods, as you put it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but both Nunn and Johnson had significant amateur experience over "Lights Out", and both were top-flight middleweight stock. They both found a way to lose to an inconsistent, supposedly inferior fighter.

Arguably, one could make a case for McCallum, a great fighter, defeating Toney in either of their initial two matches. If I had to make that argument, the rematch is where I'd look, but I'm not terribly convicted about it. The rubber match was a farce, with McCallum only putting in just under a month of actual hard training.

IMO, Toney was a great fighter but a highly inconsistent fighter. Given his limited amateur background and quick ascension to a major world title, to say nothing of competing far and away above his best weight, he had an impressive career. You and I carry different eyes, and I respect your views, and I could argue them to a reasonable and possibly very good extent, but the fighter I saw from late-90 through to 94 was hard to bet against, and at his sharpest I believe 100% in my fantasy picks.

[IronDanHamza]

"It's not that impressive when he was soundly outboxed for long periods by both Nunn and Johsnon, he argubaly lost to Johnson and was well on his way to losing to Nunn before the KO. He get's credit for both wins, sure. But they were far from impressive performances." - I'll decide what's impressive to me. We could spin it that Nunn was unimpressive, given his wheels suddenly came off after soundly outboxing Toney for long periods. After dropping Toney in the 2nd round, Johnson somehow managed to not finish Toney or thoroughly convince the judges he deserved the verdict, despite soundly outboxing Toney for long periods, as you put it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but both Nunn and Johnson had significant amateur experience over "Lights Out", and both were top-flight middleweight stock. They both found a way to lose to an inconsistent, supposedly inferior fighter.

Arguably, one could make a case for McCallum, a great fighter, defeating Toney in either of their initial two matches. If I had to make that argument, the rematch is where I'd look, but I'm not terribly convicted about it. The rubber match was a farce, with McCallum only putting in just under a month of actual hard training.

IMO, Toney was a great fighter but a highly inconsistent fighter. Given his limited amateur background and quick ascension to a major world title, to say nothing of competing far and away above his best weight, he had an impressive career. You and I carry different eyes, and I respect your views, and I could argue them to a reasonable and possibly very good extent, but the fighter I saw from late-90 through to 94 was hard to bet against, and at his sharpest I believe 100% in my fantasy picks.

Well I thought he lost to Johnson, but that's neither here nor there. The point is he was far from impressive in either of those fights where he was supposedly "at his best".

McCallum yes, a great fighter, and yes you could argue Toney beat him twice. The reality he he beat him once, and arguably lost both.

I don't doubt all 3 of the above are impressive wins, but what I'm challenging is the performance because that is what is directly linked to this mythical idea that there is a different version of Toney "at his best" or "focused".

The reality is the they're all the same, some days he shows up some days he doesn't and the reason he fails to dominate these fighters has nothing to do with this made up idea that there are different versions of him. That's not his downfall, his downfall are his very clear limitations as a fighter.

The supposed "peak" version of Toney who fought Nunn is the exact same Toney that fought Roy Jones. Or any of the other poor performances he made.

That's the point.

[Hooded Terror]

Well I thought he lost to Johnson, but that's neither here nor there. The point is he was far from impressive in either of those fights where he was supposedly "at his best".

McCallum yes, a great fighter, and yes you could argue Toney beat him twice. The reality he he beat him once, and arguably lost both.

I don't doubt all 3 of the above are impressive wins, but what I'm challenging is the performance because that is what is directly linked to this mythical idea that there is a different version of Toney "at his best" or "focused".

The reality is the they're all the same, some days he shows up some days he doesn't and the reason he fails to dominate these fighters has nothing to do with this made up idea that there are different versions of him. That's not his downfall, his downfall are his very clear limitations as a fighter.

The supposed "peak" version of Toney who fought Nunn is the exact same Toney that fought Roy Jones. Or any of the other poor performances he made.

That's the point.

Well, I simply don't see your point, ecept, perhaps, where Toney is concerned you see the glass as half empty.

Johnson, Nunn, McCallum, THAT he was razor close with them, in shape, no quit - is impressive to these eyes. No limp **** broken mentality approach. I didn't say Toney was clinical or perfect, just that in top shape (gonna throw "peak" out, because its a period in this case, not an absolute, ala pinnacle), conditioned, practiced, he forced Nunn to fall apart, got off the deck to defend his title against arguably more experienced, more talented competition. A draw is a defense.

I get that you are one of his frustrated fans. And you would have to be having indicated you have closely watched all that I've put forth. He was frustrating. He also jumped divisions, along the way, showing us his human side. His habit of showing up for duty with "sagging pants" speaks to a weakness in his professionalism. And yet he did more than just compete closely with the aforementioned names. It took a razor-sharp RJJ to vex Toney's strength at making it close.

Now let me ask you. What did you make of his two defeats to Montell Griffin, and Drake Thazdi?

[IronDanHamza]

Well, I simply don't see your point, ecept, perhaps, where Toney is concerned you see the glass as half empty.

Johnson, Nunn, McCallum, THAT he was razor close with them, in shape, no quit - is impressive to these eyes. No limp **** broken mentality approach. I didn't say Toney was clinical or perfect, just that in top shape (gonna throw "peak" out, because its a period in this case, not an absolute, ala pinnacle), conditioned, practiced, he forced Nunn to fall apart, got off the deck to defend his title against arguably more experienced, more talented competition. A draw is a defense.

I get that you are one of his frustrated fans. And you would have to be having indicated you have closely watched all that I've put forth. He was frustrating. He also jumped divisions, along the way, showing us his human side. His habit of showing up for duty with "sagging pants" speaks to a weakness in his professionalism. And yet he did more than just compete closely with the aforementioned names. It took a razor-sharp RJJ to vex Toney's strength at making it close.

Now let me ask you. What did you make of his two defeats to Montell Griffin, and Drake Thazdi?

But that's the point of contention, you're saying he was in "top shape" for those fights yet how was his shape any different to any other fights? If he didn't end up stopping Nunn in that late round then that fight would be used as an example of him "not being in shape or focused" based on the actual performance. Yet because he managed to pull out the KO it's then seen as the opposite which I don't understand.

The same for Johnson, if he got the L instead of the W the same excuse would be made there, yet it's not.

He looked no different in those 2 fights than he did vs Roy Jones? What difference is there? I don't see one. And that's the point I'm making.

I had Toney 1-1 with Griffin on my cards. Had him losing clearly to Thadzi.

[Anthony342]

Well, I simply don't see your point, ecept, perhaps, where Toney is concerned you see the glass as half empty.

Johnson, Nunn, McCallum, THAT he was razor close with them, in shape, no quit - is impressive to these eyes. No limp **** broken mentality approach. I didn't say Toney was clinical or perfect, just that in top shape (gonna throw "peak" out, because its a period in this case, not an absolute, ala pinnacle), conditioned, practiced, he forced Nunn to fall apart, got off the deck to defend his title against arguably more experienced, more talented competition. A draw is a defense.

I get that you are one of his frustrated fans. And you would have to be having indicated you have closely watched all that I've put forth. He was frustrating. He also jumped divisions, along the way, showing us his human side. His habit of showing up for duty with "sagging pants" speaks to a weakness in his professionalism. And yet he did more than just compete closely with the aforementioned names. It took a razor-sharp RJJ to vex Toney's strength at making it close.

Now let me ask you. What did you make of his two defeats to Montell Griffin, and Drake Thazdi?

Speak Toney's name 1 time and it will summon forth the angry spirit of Iron Dan.

[IronDanHamza]

Speak Toney's name 1 time and it will summon forth the angry spirit of Iron Dan.

You know it's funny, I thought this was a discussion board where people make topics and then people post in them and discuss them.

How silly of me.