1940 - Dempsey vs Louis who wins

[HOUDINI563]

I was sent an article from 1940 that posed the question of who would win this matchup.

Interestingly those that chose Dempsey mentioned Dempseys punching power as well as Dempsey being able to “take it” OR Louis inability to “take it”.

Those that chose Louis primarily felt Louis hit harder(?) than Dempsey.

Fleischer’s opinion was interesting and filled in a “blank” I had regarding this opinion.

If you read his book dated late 50’s..50 Years at Ringside Nat rated Dempsey as the 4th greatest heavyweight and Louis 6th. He does not state who would win this fight but intimates Dempsey as he mentions Dempseys fast start, Louis being a slow starter off the blocks, Dempsey being quicker and having the better chin.

Fast foreword to the late 1960’s during the radio broadcast of an all time computer heavyweight boxing championship Fleischer is asked his opinion prior to the computer generated fight. Nat stated that Louis would knock out Dempsey in six rounds as both hit equally hard but Louis the better boxer (although Dempsey could box well).

Within the 1940 article Fleischer stated that Dempsey would win by ko in two rounds under his eras knockdown rules whereas Louis wins by ko in 6 rounds under the knockdown rules of his era.

Both Joe Jacobs and Mike Jacobs picked Louis due to his tremendous punching power.

[billeau2]

I was sent an article from 1940 that posed the question of who would win this matchup.

Interestingly those that chose Dempsey mentioned Dempseys punching power as well as Dempsey being able to “take it” OR Louis inability to “take it”.

Those that chose Louis primarily felt Louis hit harder(?) than Dempsey.

Fleischer’s opinion was interesting and filled in a “blank” I had regarding this opinion.

If you read his book dated late 50’s..50 Years at Ringside Nat rated Dempsey as the 4th greatest heavyweight and Louis 6th. He does not state who would win this fight but intimates Dempsey as he mentions Dempseys fast start, Louis being a slow starter off the blocks, Dempsey being quicker and having the better chin.

Fast foreword to the late 1960’s during the radio broadcast of an all time computer heavyweight boxing championship Fleischer is asked his opinion prior to the computer generated fight. Nat stated that Louis would knock out Dempsey in six rounds as both hit equally hard but Louis the better boxer (although Dempsey could box well).

Within the 1940 article Fleischer stated that Dempsey would win by ko in two rounds under his eras knockdown rules whereas Louis wins by ko in 6 rounds under the knockdown rules of his era.

Both Joe Jacobs and Mike Jacobs picked Louis due to his tremendous punching power.

I would assume here that history has given perspective. Not necessarily correct perspective, but different perspective. Ali was initially derided as well I seem to remember.

One has to be philosophical and take a meta-historical perspective here. Lets say there is no absolute answer and when we compare dempsey to Louis, initially we are comparing them to one set of fighters and then to another set of fighters... and that this whole comparison changes based on these groupings.

[QueensburyRules]

- - Joe 25 at the start of '40 with so-so results vs Godoy-SD, Paychek-KO, Godoy-KO, and McCoy-dubious KO, all modest competition.

Presumably we're talking preHollywood Jack still young and unadorned. Both in advance would know the careers of each ideally, but maybe not so much then. Jack had already set the record for 1st round KOs by then, hence his rep as a fast starter, but Joe in an odd circumstance had a busier title record due to the legalization of boxing, so Joe had that asset that has to be respected.

Always favored Jack, but truth be told this is the best even fantasy match up that can be had. We came within a whisker of having a real match in '34 with comeback Jack fighting himself into shape via a hundred coast to coast exhibitions with Joe as a rapidly rising fringe contender wrecking the competition.

[Flickergrab98]

I’d say Louis. Dempsey was what past his prime by 1940, assuming that’s the year this is set in. Louis’ greater technical skill may also give him the tools necessary to give Dempsey trouble.

[HOUDINI563]

The hypothetical bout of course would be with both fighters in their prime.

There is still very strong debate as who would win this bout. I’ve gone back and forth over the last 40 years concerning the winner. For the last number of years I am convinced Dempsey with his ultra quick start and superior speed stops Louis early.

[Willie Pep 229]

I was sent an article from 1940 that posed the question of who would win this matchup.

Interestingly those that chose Dempsey mentioned Dempseys punching power as well as Dempsey being able to “take it” OR Louis inability to “take it”.

Those that chose Louis primarily felt Louis hit harder(?) than Dempsey.

Fleischer’s opinion was interesting and filled in a “blank” I had regarding this opinion.

If you read his book dated late 50’s..50 Years at Ringside Nat rated Dempsey as the 4th greatest heavyweight and Louis 6th. He does not state who would win this fight but intimates Dempsey as he mentions Dempseys fast start, Louis being a slow starter off the blocks, Dempsey being quicker and having the better chin.

Fast foreword to the late 1960’s during the radio broadcast of an all time computer heavyweight boxing championship Fleischer is asked his opinion prior to the computer generated fight. Nat stated that Louis would knock out Dempsey in six rounds as both hit equally hard but Louis the better boxer (although Dempsey could box well).

Within the 1940 article Fleischer stated that Dempsey would win by ko in two rounds under his eras knockdown rules whereas Louis wins by ko in 6 rounds under the knockdown rules of his era.

Both Joe Jacobs and Mike Jacobs picked Louis due to his tremendous punching power.

I don't understand the section I bold faced. What changed between 1923 and 1938?

Kidney guard belts became legal in 1931; mouth pieces in 1928. - Glove size increased from 5-6 oz to 6-8 oz.

Is that enough of a difference to change the outcome?

Is he possibly talking about the neutral corner rule? (There was no mandatory eight count yet for either era.)

So what did he see as different?

P.S. Of course Uncle Mike Jacobs would pick Louis, he had him under contract.

Joe Jacobs? As in Schmeling's manager/trainer?

P.S.S. I wonder if Nat wasn't just slinging some shlt here trying to find a way to please both fans.

[HOUDINI563]

As per my original post Nat was referencing the different knockdown rules of the respective eras. Neutral corner rule vs no neutral corner rule.

So Nat felt Dempsey would dominate early and without a neutral corner rule he would keep Louis hurt. With a neutral corner rule Louis would have a bit more time to recover and do what Louis normally did to opponents after he was hurt.

[billeau2]

- - Joe 25 at the start of '40 with so-so results vs Godoy-SD, Paychek-KO, Godoy-KO, and McCoy-dubious KO, all modest competition.

Presumably we're talking preHollywood Jack still young and unadorned. Both in advance would know the careers of each ideally, but maybe not so much then. Jack had already set the record for 1st round KOs by then, hence his rep as a fast starter, but Joe in an odd circumstance had a busier title record due to the legalization of boxing, so Joe had that asset that has to be respected.

Always favored Jack, but truth be told this is the best even fantasy match up that can be had. We came within a whisker of having a real match in '34 with comeback Jack fighting himself into shape via a hundred coast to coast exhibitions with Joe as a rapidly rising fringe contender wrecking the competition.

Agreed. I never picked one but I would go with Dempsey prime for prime. I would do so based on the fact that in boxing around the time when Tyson was knocken em dead we had a boxing rarity: you had trainers still alive who had seen and worked in gyms with dempsey and Louis and some...even Johnson. So you had trainers who had seen as far back as Johnson (rare) but at least to dempsey, seen Ali, and witnessed Tyson. The consensus of these trainers was that Demsey was the greatest heavyweight that ever lived.

Edit: Believe it or not? Marciano was usually second, followed by Louis.

[Willie Pep 229]

As per my original post Nat was referencing the different knockdown rules of the respective eras. Neutral corner rule vs no neutral corner rule.

So Nat felt Dempsey would dominate early and without a neutral corner rule he would keep Louis hurt. With a neutral corner rule Louis would have a bit more time to recover and do what Louis normally did to opponents after he was hurt.

Ok but doesn't seen enough of a difference to change a fight from KO to opposite KO - I like my assessment better - he was just trying to please everyone and sell his magazine LOL

Remember he isn't saying mandatory eight count - which can turn a KD into an almost a 20 second event, between eight count and then the referee checking out the fallen fighter - even with the neutral corner rule most fighters in the 1930s and after foolishly jumped right back up before they were ready and refs would wave the other guy back in immediately, e.g. Carnera v. Baer.

Tunney had a real high ring IQ and IMO that's why he survived that viscous KD - wouldn't surprise me if Louis foolishly tried to jump right back up in that same situation.

[HOUDINI563]

Taking all three Fleischer “statements” as a whole there is no doubt in my mind he was referencing without a neutral corner rule Louis would never had a chance to recover as Dempsey would be upon him as soon as his gloves lifted off the canvas (if not sooner). With the neutral corner rule Louis has much more of a chance to recover and lay Dempsey out by round 6.