New film of Dempsey Sharkey bout

[travestyny]

I agree with all you said - except the part about a ref calling fouls today - didn't Money" (it was a recent great fighter but I can't remember who) nail some Latino fighter with a sucker punch when the guy looked away to complain to the ref. ( Maybe it was Jones) either way that happened in the last 20 years and there were no complaints.

Can't envision what you mean by a "firm STOP" that sounds unrealistic and is begging to create DQs.

You mean Victor Ortiz? That was after the ref ordered them to fight, not immediately after a foul.

Refs say "STOP" all the time. What I mean, for instance...look at the Tito vs. Vargas fight above. The ref steps in after the low blow and yells, "Stop Stop." Imagine if Tito threw a knockout punch at that point. If Vargas can't continue, the ref would have no choice but to disqualify Tito.

[Willie Pep 229]

You mean Victor Ortiz? That was after the ref ordered them to fight, not immediately after a foul.

Refs say "STOP" all the time. What I mean, for instance...look at the Tito vs. Vargas fight above. The ref steps in after the low blow and yells, "Stop Stop." Imagine if Tito threw a knockout punch at that point. If Vargas can't continue, the ref would have no choice but to disqualify Tito.

OK - just taking it along as a hypothetical. . . what if it is a loud crowd and the focused fighter in the mist of the violence doesn't hear the ref and continues fighting, do you DQ him? -- This hypothetical doesn't involve the other fighter complaining to the ref, just the ref wanting to stop the action to give a warning for low blows.

In Dempsey's case I suppose what you are saying is the referee wasnt assertive enough. I wonder if that is a ref by ref issue or is something that has changed over time.

BTW Who was the fighter who sucker punch Ortiz?

[travestyny]

OK - just taking it along as a hypothetical. . . what if it is a loud crowd and the focused fighter in the mist of the violence doesn't hear the ref and continues fighting, do you DQ him? -- This hypothetical doesn't involve the other fighter complaining to the ref, just the ref wanting to stop the action to give a warning for low blows.

In Dempsey's case I suppose what you are saying is the referee wasnt assertive enough. I wonder if that is a ref by ref issue or is something that has changed over time.

BTW Who was the fighter who sucker punch Ortiz?

Well yea, unfortunately, I think the ref would have no choice but to disqualify the fighter. Or can they make it a no contest...???? I think unfortunately the ref would have no choice but to disqualify. I'm wondering if there is any example of something similar.


It was Mayweather who socked Ortiz. I'm trying to see if there are any examples out there of a fighter not hearing the ref and what the aftermath was.


But now that I think of it...would it really be any different than a punch landed after the bell? Maybe the fighter doesn't hear the bell...but knocks out another fighter. What happens then? No contest perhaps? But I'm not sure if the ref can call a fight a no contest (it would be a no contest if it occurred in the first 4 rounds, like Tyson vs. Norris). He would probably have to rule for the downed fighter, and later it can be changed to a no contest....?
I've edited this post a billion times...lol


Remember this example: Andre Dirrell won against Uzcategui after Uzcategui hit him after the bell sounded. Disqualification victory.

[Willie Pep 229]

Well yea, unfortunately, I think the ref would have no choice but to disqualify the fighter. Or can they make it a no contest...???? I think unfortunately the ref would have no choice but to disqualify. I'm wondering if there is any example of something similar.


It was Mayweather who socked Ortiz. I'm trying to see if there are any examples out there of a fighter not hearing the ref and what the aftermath was.


But now that I think of it...would it really be any different than a punch landed after the bell? Maybe the fighter doesn't hear the bell...but knocks out another fighter. What happens then? No contest perhaps? But I'm not sure if the ref can call a fight a no contest (it would be a no contest if it occurred in the first 4 rounds, like Tyson vs. Norris). He would probably have to rule for the downed fighter, and later it can be changed to a no contest....?
I've edited this post a billion times...lol


Remember this example: Andre Dirrell won against Uzcategui after Uzcategui hit him after the bell sounded. Disqualification victory.

Why it always goes back to Dempsey but . . . Dempsey once (seriously) proposed to the NYSAC that they use a gun shot to end rounds. Arguing that it is the only thing a fighter is guaranteed to hear. Lol

[travestyny]

Why it always goes back to Dempsey but . . . Dempsey once (seriously) proposed to the NYSAC that they use a gun shot to end rounds. Arguing that it is the only thing a fighter is guaranteed to hear. Lol

Lucky that didn't happen. Without metal detectors at venues, thousands of fans would have been counting down their chance to take a shot at Jack Johnson.

[travestyny]

I investigated this bout for months pouring over every quote.

Houdini, I'm just wondering what you think of this situation now after what we've found out. Does it change how you view this at all? Sometimes we just need a fresh pair of eyes to help us out here. Apparently I unearthed a quote that you missed...and I was trying to find a secondary source to verify the ref's statement that the last body shot was low and couldn't find one, but then you posted it here. Not sure how I overlooked it. That's why it pays to go into these things open minded, without an agenda, and without being at each other's throats when information is presented that we might not personally like. Team work!

And to be clear, I'm not trying to gloat that I assessed the quotation correctly. I'm just sincerely curious about what you think about this whole thing now that it is confirmed that the ref believed the final body blow was low.

And what do you make of the ref claiming that the beginning of the end was a (phantom) left to the solar plexus. Apparently, this ref had a bad day at the office.

[Dr. Z]

The shot was low. Back then the metal cups could slide on you, causing more harm than protection. I'd rather see the Dempsey vs Firpo from Argentina.

I hear people say this film shows Dempsey out of the ring from a much longer periods of time. The one we've seen is highly edited. .