New film of Dempsey Sharkey bout

[HOUDINI563]

Years ago I wrote to Pathe France to see if they had a complete film of Dempseys bouts with Firpo or Sharkey. The response was that they only has the snippets of the Sharkey KO. So today I looked in on the British Pathe web site and low and behold I found this:

https://www.britishpathe.com/video/V...empsey+Sharkey

Different filming viewpoint and it’s at distance and speed is excessive. Interesting still. Need a slo mo version.

This angle actually would reveal the “smoking gun” if someone had the ability to sharpen and lighten the film quality and slow it down. The well known film of this bout you can clearly see the first two body blows prior to the ko hook. They are not low. You can’t see the third body blow. THIS version is taken on the other side of the ring so that third body blow is visible. It’s just hard to see because of quality. Does anyone have the ability to make this video specifically that last body blow more visible???

[HOUDINI563]

The count

https://www.britishpathe.com/video/j...empsey+Sharkey

[travestyny]

In some ways this angle seems worse than the other. We may have a chance to see somewhat more of where the punch landed if it could be lightened up and slowed down, but harder to see Sharkey's reaction to the punch being low. The other angle shows his right hand clutch for his groin twice when down, as it appears to me anyway. What's interesting about your second video is that it shows Dempsey carrying Sharkey to his stool, and sharkey's legs weren't functioning at all. He also seemed to clutch at his groin at the point that he got to his stool. Seems the poor guy got it in two places to me. To the groin and the the head when he turned to complain to the ref, which made him punch drunk. Shame because he was up in the fight.

Here's the other vid in color. Hope we can get someone to try to slow down your vide and lighten it up! Good find!

[HOUDINI563]

No. You can clearly see the first two body blows in the original film of the bout. They are not low. You can’t see the third... but the referee did. He stated emphatically that Dempsey landed three vicious right uppercuts to the pit of Sharkeys body none of which were low. In addition the doctor assigned to the bout examined Sharkey after the bout and found no evidence that a low blow was struck.

The next day Rickard showed the fight film to the reporters who covered the bout. The next day you see headlines “Film of fight show body blows were legal”. However the film did not convince everyone and I always wondered why as the evidence is very clearly on one side of the argument. In those days a boxing writers opinion of who would win a bout was considered highly important as bets were won or lost based upon these opinions. The end result of this bout gave these writers an “out”. Benny Leonard wrote a daily article leading up to this bout culminating in his opinion as who would win. He stated Sharkey would win easily. No contest. What did he see at the bouts conclusion...three deliberate low blows 8-10 inches below the belt. (paraphrasing here as I don’t have his words in front of me). Obviously this never occurred and it’s difficult to imagine how anyone could honestly state this as fact being a ringside eye witness.

[travestyny]

No. You can clearly see the first two body blows in the original film of the bout. They are not low. You can’t see the third... but the referee did. He stated emphatically that Dempsey landed three vicious right uppercuts to the pit of Sharkeys body none of which were low. In addition the doctor assigned to the bout examined Sharkey after the bout and found no evidence that a low blow was struck.

The next day Rickard showed the fight film to the reporters who covered the bout. The next day you see headlines “Film of fight show body blows were legal”. However the film did not convince everyone and I always wondered why as the evidence is very clearly on one side of the argument. In those days a boxing writers opinion of who would win a bout was considered highly important as bets were won or lost based upon these opinions. The end result of this bout gave these writers an “out”. Benny Leonard wrote a daily article leading up to this bout culminating in his opinion as who would win. He stated Sharkey would win easily. No contest. What did he see at the bouts conclusion...three deliberate low blows 8-10 inches below the belt. (paraphrasing here as I don’t have his words in front of me). Obviously this never occurred and it’s difficult to imagine how anyone could honestly state this as fact being a ringside eye witness.

lol. Come on, bruh. The doctor looked at his balls and could tell if he got hit in the balls?

All I know is the dude got hit, popped his head up like he was suddenly electrocuted, looked at the ref to complain, and was socked while complaining... in a fight that he was apparently winning.

Your other video also seems to show that even when Dempsey lifted him up off the canvas, his legs wouldn't straighten out (as if affected by the low blow), and he grabs his groin at the point that he is set at his stool. Also grabbed for his groin twice while down in the colorized video. Doesn't seem like a smart thing for a guy to do who is supposedly winning to drop his guard and let Dempsey, who has legendary power, have free rein at his chin. Seems strange he would look for a way out when he was halfway to the championship.


Probably the only person who knows if he was hit in the balls was Sharkey, but it certainly appears to be the case.

[travestyny]

In fairness, I don't think any film that we see will settle this. I've just read reports where the fight was rewatched in slow motion and half were calling it fair, and the other half were calling it low. One judge said Dempsey hit low and should have been disqualified. Another said he hit low but not worthy of being disqualified. I've also read two statements by the referee.

In one he says, "It was a right uppercut that landed on the waistline but not below."

In another one, he says, "I was right on top of the boxers preceding the knockout. Dempsey brought up a sweeping right for the body. It was a low punch but it was not a damaging blow. It landed on Sharkey's left thigh and swept on up. I warned Dempsey to watch his punches."

So which was it? Damned if I know.


Also to be fair, it doesn't seem that Sharkey was winning this fight, at least not officially.

The ref had it: 2 to Dempsey, 1 to Sharkey, and 3 Even...
Another Judge: 3 to Dempsey, 2 to Sharkey, 1 Even...
A final Judge: 4 to Sharkey, 1 to Dempsey, 1 Even...


...at the time of the stoppage. Dempsey cut and bleeding but razor close.

[billeau2]

Years ago I wrote to Pathe France to see if they had a complete film of Dempseys bouts with Firpo or Sharkey. The response was that they only has the snippets of the Sharkey KO. So today I looked in on the British Pathe web site and low and behold I found this:

https://www.britishpathe.com/video/V...empsey+Sharkey

Different filming viewpoint and it’s at distance and speed is excessive. Interesting still. Need a slo mo version.

This angle actually would reveal the “smoking gun” if someone had the ability to sharpen and lighten the film quality and slow it down. The well known film of this bout you can clearly see the first two body blows prior to the ko hook. They are not low. You can’t see the third body blow. THIS version is taken on the other side of the ring so that third body blow is visible. It’s just hard to see because of quality. Does anyone have the ability to make this video specifically that last body blow more visible???

Thanks for the film to view Houdini. I will take a look.

[billeau2]

In fairness, I don't think any film that we see will settle this. I've just read reports where the fight was rewatched in slow motion and half were calling it fair, and the other half were calling it low. One judge said Dempsey hit low and should have been disqualified. Another said he hit low but not worthy of being disqualified. I've also read two statements by the referee.

In one he says, "It was a right uppercut that landed on the waistline but not below."

In another one, he says, "I was right on top of the boxers preceding the knockout. Dempsey brought up a sweeping right for the body. It was a low punch but it was not a damaging blow. It landed on Sharkey's left thigh and swept on up. I warned Dempsey to watch his punches."

So which was it? Damned if I know.


Also to be fair, it doesn't seem that Sharkey was winning this fight, at least not officially.

The ref had it: 2 to Dempsey, 1 to Sharkey, and 3 Even...
Another Judge: 3 to Dempsey, 2 to Sharkey, 1 Even...
A final Judge: 4 to Sharkey, 1 to Dempsey, 1 Even...


...at the time of the stoppage. Dempsey cut and bleeding but razor close.

T, isn't it so ironic... Before the age of the internet as a social force, and all related phone apps that give people the ability to snap a photo... One was led to believe photo proof was incontravertable. Yet, as it turns out, video accounts are often confusing. Many times film tells us relatively little about a situation. And any smart 8 year old can doctor a photo with editing software... not to mention CGI.

[ShoulderRoll]

One thing is for sure, something obviously affected Sharkey and he turned immediately to complain to the ref.

That's what left him open to the left hook.

[travestyny]

T, isn't it so ironic... Before the age of the internet as a social force, and all related phone apps that give people the ability to snap a photo... One was led to believe photo proof was incontravertable. Yet, as it turns out, video accounts are often confusing. Many times film tells us relatively little about a situation. And any smart 8 year old can doctor a photo with editing software... not to mention CGI.

So true. It's funny because the articles were pretty much saying this same thing way back then. Some were saying the video would help settle the matter....then as the video was viewed, the articles were saying the video just divided people even more And the way things are going with deep fakes and the such nowadays....pretty soon we won't be able to believe anything we see!