ATG's: Best technical pressure fighter of any era?

[Steak]

Is there any chance Tyson could have been considered one?

sort of.
most of Tyson's ability to close the distance(in my opinion) was due to his foward foot speed and hand speed. although he had flashes of brilliance, I didnt particularly think that he was great at effectively cutting off the ring and pressuring in a skill only point of view.
I thought Frazier's constant head movement and variation of his guard were technically superior than Tyson's pressure fighting.

maybe this sounds surprising, but from a technical standpoint, I think that maybe Ken Norton had the best(or at least one of the best) styles of pressure fighting among heavyweights. he was pretty darn hard to keep off when he was coming foward...and he didnt get hit too often at the same time.
also take into account that he fought two of the best HW boxers of all time, both with legendary jabs who used the ring heavily to their advantage...Ali and Larry Holmes. and in both fights, he certainly held his own, arguably beating Holmes and beating Ali twice.

anyone else with me on Norton

[TheGreatA]

sort of.
most of Tyson's ability to close the distance(in my opinion) was due to his foward foot speed and hand speed. although he had flashes of brilliance, I didnt particularly think that he was great at effectively cutting off the ring and pressuring in a skill only point of view.
I thought Frazier's constant head movement and variation of his guard were technically superior than Tyson's pressure fighting.

maybe this sounds surprising, but from a technical standpoint, I think that maybe Ken Norton had the best(or at least one of the best) styles of pressure fighting among heavyweights. he was pretty darn hard to keep off when he was coming foward...and he didnt get hit too often at the same time.
also take into account that he fought two of the best HW boxers of all time, both with legendary jabs who used the ring heavily to their advantage...Ali and Larry Holmes. and in both fights, he certainly held his own, arguably beating Holmes and beating Ali twice.

anyone else with me on Norton

Good call with Norton.

I also think that Tyson's pressure wasn't as consistent as he could have been. He showed flashes of it but Tyson generally didn't try to work the body and fight on the inside too much, and he was happy to accept clinches and restart from a distance.

I'm sure that the simple sight of having Tyson come after you brought a lot of pressure to many of his opponents however...

[princemanspoper]

maybe this sounds surprising, but from a technical standpoint, I think that maybe Ken Norton had the best(or at least one of the best) styles of pressure fighting among heavyweights. he was pretty darn hard to keep off when he was coming foward...and he didnt get hit too often at the same time.
also take into account that he fought two of the best HW boxers of all time, both with legendary jabs who used the ring heavily to their advantage...Ali and Larry Holmes. and in both fights, he certainly held his own, arguably beating Holmes and beating Ali twice.

anyone else with me on Norton

To a degree you are right,Norton was excellent at cutting off a ring over due time but he still got hit regularly with the jab,Ali in his second fight and Holmes through the first eight or nine rounds were landing the jab on Norton at will.What Norton was great at was catching jabs and countering with his own.Ali and Holmes have hell with Norton in the kind of ring Vitali Klitschko fought Gomez in

Where do you rate Louis as an ATG HW roughly?

Top two.Now perhaps you could answer me why it was such an important question for me to answer?

[JAB5239]

And yet,He throws in another accusation.Still waiting for his proof that I am indeed an alt.There is as much evidence to prove that you are an alt of poet's rather than myself being an alt.But of course, I'm not the one throwing out baseless accusations, Am I?

Plenty of proof that you're a moron. Why don't you tell us again how Mac Foster was a super sized heavy and how him and Lyle were both ducked by Frazier. We all saw how you tucked tail and ran from that debate. As far as anything else you have to say.....same old rubbish. You're entertainment Piss******. Just another dog for intelligent posters to kick around these boards. Thank you for that though. You make idiots look smart and smart people look like geniuses.

[boxingbuff]

I think it was Roberto Duran by a long mile. In his prime, he was the best fighter ever who kept coming forward. His skills and relentlessness took him to 15 round decisions of some of the best fleat footed guys ever to have boxed, including SRL. SRL even said in an interview (on Beyond the Glory) that he saw Duran getting fat and out of shape, so decided to get a rematch right then at that moment so he could be guaranteed a win. Duran on top of his game would have beaten him again. Discuss.

Duran,Henry Armstrong,Joe Frazier......

Duran like Frazier was alot harder to hit than most people think.SRL said so himself.Ali said Frazier was the hardest fighter to hit that he ever fought.

So Duran and Frazier could both apply tremendous pressure and at the same time being hard to hit.Both went to the body,and could land awesome body punches to wear down there opponents.The old sang applied to them:"Kill the body and the head will die" Then both could hit hard with wicked shots to the head.Then body and head!! Both being able to keep applied tremendous pressure for 15 rounds! The same goes for Hammering Hank Armstrong,who held 3 Titles at the SAME TIME!!

[princemanspoper]

Plenty of proof that you're a moron. Why don't you tell us again how Mac Foster was a super sized heavy and how him and Lyle were both ducked by Frazier. We all saw how you tucked tail and ran from that debate. As far as anything else you have to say.....same old rubbish. You're entertainment Piss******. Just another dog for intelligent posters to kick around these boards. Thank you for that though. You make idiots look smart and smart people look like geniuses.

What are you talking about? Where have I ever described Mac Foster as a super sized heavy(what does that even mean?) and yes Frazier avoided fights with Foster and Lyle in the 1970-1972 period respectively,Just like he avoided ever fighting Leotis Martin and Zora Folley in the 1965-1967 period respectively.I think you should take that sock out of your mouth child.Now continue with the name calling child because you still haven't given any proof at all as to me being an alt

[JAB5239]

What are you talking about? Where have I ever described Mac Foster as a super sized heavy(what does that even mean?) and yes Frazier avoided fights with Foster and Lyle in the 1970-1972 period respectively,

Foster lost to Quarry in 70 and Ali in 72. when did he deserve this shot? He was beaten every time he stepped up in competition. This is a fact.

Lyle didn't turn pro till 1971 and only had 18 fights by the end of 72 and was ko'd by Quarry in the beginning of 73.

How do you figure either of these guys were worthy of fighting for the heavyweight title during this time frame?

Just like he avoided ever fighting Leotis Martin and Zora Folley in the 1965-1967 period respectively.

Frazier didn't turn pro until 1965. Martin had 4 losses in 67 and Folley was between 35 and 37 and past his best during that period.

In 1967 Joe fought and beat Machen, Bonevena, Jones and Chuvalo. Top comp in his second year as a pro. Your argument doesn't hold water Piss******. Wait....Im sorry. You didn't make an argument, only a baseless accusation that I've put to rest once again. Now tuck that tail and run along.

I think you should take that sock out of your mouth child.Now continue with the name calling child because you still haven't given any proof at all as to me being an alt

Why would I have to give proof of you being an alt? I've never called you one and could care less either way.

[princemanspoper]

Foster lost to Quarry in 70 and Ali in 72. when did he deserve this shot? He was beaten every time he stepped up in competition. This is a fact.

It maybe a fact,But the problem you have child is the fact that Frazier still avoided him,You blatantly ignore the time frame,Foster had much hype going around at the time.Regardless of if his wins were over a washed up Cleveland Williams he recieved a great deal of hype over them and was discussed as a serious contender for Frazier however Frazier and his camp wanted nothing to do with it.The fight would have drawn huge in Fresno where Foster was a big draw

Lyle didn't turn pro till 1971 and only had 18 fights by the end of 72 and was ko'd by Quarry in the beginning of 73.

Same case scenario with Foster only on a greater scale.Lyle was even bigger than Foster and was a much better fighter.Even later on when Frazier was no longer champion he wanted nothing to do with him and just so you know Quarry never stopped Lyle

Frazier didn't turn pro until 1965. Martin had 4 losses in 67 and Folley was between 35 and 37 and past his best during that period.

1965-1967 a Two year period you dumbass,Not specifically those years.Folley was past his best and Eddie Machen wasn't? Great logic there moron,Folley was actually still a ranked heavyweight contender during 1966 where's Machen hadn't been ranked since his losses to Floyd Patterson and Earnie Terrell and besides correcting you on these obvious facts Fraziers trainer/manager Yank Durham flat out told the press that they wanted nothing to do with Zora Folley,Everyone avoided folley no matter how old and washed up you think he was.Leotis Martin lost twice in 1967 fool and Frazier's avoided him throughout 1966 and it was even rumored that Frazier ducked out of the tournament to avoid Martin.

"Martin, out of the violent, devouring pits of Philadelphia, had been ducked by everyone, including Frazier, who would not fight him with a *******."

In 1967 Joe fought and beat Machen, Bonevena, Jones and Chuvalo. Top comp in his second year as a pro. Your argument doesn't hold water Piss******. Wait....Im sorry. You didn't make an argument, only a baseless accusation that I've put to rest once again. Now tuck that tail and run along.

And I don't recall ever saying he ducked and avoided and old unranked Machen or Bonavena or Jones or Chuvalo you idiot,So I guess the very thing you said of my argument is applied to your's you delusional fool.It's very sad and pathetic to what depths you will go to defend him even in the light of evidence of the time


Keep in mind tho folk,That this is the same clown who claims James Toney had one more fight at middleweight after his rematch with Mike McCallum despite evidence proving otherwise

You make dunce(*****) almost look credible you fool

[JAB5239]

It maybe a fact,But the problem you have child is the fact that Frazier still avoided him,You blatantly ignore the time frame,Foster had much hype going around at the time.Regardless of if his wins were over a washed up Cleveland Williams he recieved a great deal of hype over them and was discussed as a serious contender for Frazier however Frazier and his camp wanted nothing to do with it.The fight would have drawn huge in Fresno where Foster was a big draw

Hype is all fine and good, but that doesn't mean he was the most qualified challenger. I find it impossible to say one fighter ducked another when A, the champion fought BETTER fighters, and B, said fighter lost the fights that could have gotten him his shot.

Same case scenario with Foster only on a greater scale.Lyle was even bigger than Foster and was a much better fighter.Even later on when Frazier was no longer champion he wanted nothing to do with him and just so you know Quarry never stopped Lyle

Lyle was a good fighter but a notch below Frazier, especially that early in his career. WHY should Frazier have fought him when he was so easily beaten by Quarry?

1965-1967 a Two year period you dumbass,Not specifically those years.

If it wasn't specific than why specify it, dumbass?

Folley was past his best and Eddie Machen wasn't? Great logic there moron,Folley was actually still a ranked heavyweight contender during 1966 where's Machen hadn't been ranked since his losses to Floyd Patterson and Earnie Terrell and besides correcting you on these obvious facts Fraziers trainer/manager Yank Durham flat out told the press that they wanted nothing to do with Zora Folley,Everyone avoided folley no matter how old and washed up you think he was.Leotis Martin lost twice in 1967 fool and Frazier's avoided him throughout 1966 and it was even rumored that Frazier ducked out of the tournament to avoid Martin.

Every champion in history can be accused of not making certain fights on theie way up. Folley offered no upside. Win and you beat an old man, lose and you lost to an old man. WHY should Frazier have taken that fight?

"Martin, out of the violent, devouring pits of Philadelphia, had been ducked by everyone, including Frazier, who would not fight him with a *******."

Sorry kid, someone saying it doesn't make it fact.

And I don't recall ever saying he ducked and avoided and old unranked Machen or Bonavena or Jones or Chuvalo you idiot,So I guess the very thing you said of my argument is applied to your's you delusional fool.It's very sad and pathetic to what depths you will go to defend him even in the light of evidence of the time

I never said you said any of that. You are however, totally unreasonable with you ASSumptions of Frazier ducking certain fighters during this time frame. No reasonable person can expect a young fighter to take EVERY tough fight. You on the other hand are not a reasonable person.

Keep in mind tho folk,That this is the same clown who claims James Toney had one more fight at middleweight after his rematch with Mike McCallum despite evidence proving otherwise

Yes a made an error on that one, but Im man enough to own up to it.

[princemanspoper]

Yes a made an error on that one, but Im man enough to own up to it.

Hype is all fine and good, but that doesn't mean he was the most qualified challenger. I find it impossible to say one fighter ducked another when A, the champion fought BETTER fighters, and B, said fighter lost the fights that could have gotten him his shot.

Mac Foster was a more qualified challenger than Bob Foster who flopped anytime he fought a heavyweight of note and that is an absolutely ridiculous argument and it's a cop out argument aswell

Lyle was a good fighter but a notch below Frazier, especially that early in his career. WHY should Frazier have fought him when he was so easily beaten by Quarry?

So now you use the triangle theory,Quarry beat Lyle so it automatically means Frazier beats Lyle despite never fighting him.I already gave you the time frame and you have blatantly ignored it,My original points were Foster and Lyle were regarded as legitimate threats to Frazier during the period of which I mentioned,Frazier wanted nothing to do with them despite of what money and recognition he would have earned from beating them at that time.Quarry was used Frazier's gatekeeper and even when that gate was opened it didn't guarantee a title shot as was the case with Ali

If it wasn't specific than why specify it, dumbass?

I said in between 1965-1967 not 1965 specifically and not 1967 specifically,Dumbass.It wasn't that difficult to tell what I meant

Every champion in history can be accused of not making certain fights on theie way up. Folley offered no upside. Win and you beat an old man, lose and you lost to an old man. WHY should Frazier have taken that fight?

Why would he take a fight with Eddie Machen who was as old as Folley was and who wasn't as highly ranked as Folley was?

Sorry kid, someone saying it doesn't make it fact.

Yes ok,Blatantly ignore the time frame and general perception of the time once again and twist it to fit your own agenda,(There were alot more qoutes trust me)It's very easy to do with history by delusional,insecure fools intent on protecting their Idols rep

I never said you said any of that. You are however, totally unreasonable with you ASSumptions of Frazier ducking certain fighters during this time frame. No reasonable person can expect a young fighter to take EVERY tough fight. You on the other hand are not a reasonable person.

And no reasonable person can ignore somebody blatantly avoiding certain fighters throughout their careers not just a young up and coming fighter,These are not just assumptions either.I have presented my arguments alot better than you who has just backed up into the corner and curled up into a ball clutching your joe frazier picture close to your heart

Yes a made an error on that one, but Im man enough to own up to it.

Own up to being a clown who claimed that I trying "to get by with false information."? That I spread "blatant lies"?

You're getting owned by a troll here son.Your arguments are pathetic and a cop out.I'm not a bad guy however,I shall let you pass with what dignity you have left.This argument ended long ago when you backed off of your original statements and anyone following this conversation will be able to see this

Your effort =

Leave the conversations between the grown ups child