Does anyone on here think Muhhamad Ali is overrated?

[Slimey Limey]

Angelo will also be the first to tell you that a young Cassius Clay wanted to quit after the fourth round against Liston but he convinced Ali to continue and try to survive the round.

I bet if Robinson was retired in his corner like Ali was against Holmes you'd be calling him a quitter too due to your bias, but Robinson fought in his mid 40's while a shadow of what he used to be and was never stopped.

I proved to you what his condition was against Maxim (doctors, boxing experts, ringside viewers, former fighters and officials all agreed that he was in no condition to fight on) but I see my arguments have fallen into deaf ears.

Don't try to change the subject you moron. Angelo Dundee was asked specifically if Ali was going to quit before the 15th round. And he said NO, Ali was going to continue. That's what this is about and you're just changing the subject to ignore this fact and ramble on about a whole lot of bollocks like you always do.

And I knew you would bring up drugged up Ali who was suffering from Parkinsons being battered by a top 10 ATG HW and his CORNER stopping the fight. That just shows what type of lad you are, just a classless piece of ****.

You didn't prove nothing mate. Robinson was still a live fighter, won some rounds too but when Maxim turned up the heat on him, Salty GAY Robinson saw that he was going to be KO'd for the first time. So like the coward he was, he quit and acted like he couldn't continue.

You ran away with your tail between your **** last time in the thunderdome. It's best if you keep your classless mouth shut mate.

[Obama]

I find it interesting that the guy calling the other classless is the one making all the petty insults.

[boxingbuff]

By all rights Clay may not have deserved to beat Cooper the first time. Angelo cheated for him. Can't even be sure Angelo did it without Ali asking him. Ali did after all ask for his gloves to be cut off in the 3rd Frazier fight. Yes I realize the forms of cutting are different, but maybe Ali wanted to quit in the Cooper fight too and Angelo compromised to make it look like a glove malfunction in order to buy the kid enough time to change his mind.

The Cassius Clay of 1963 was far from the Prime Muhammad Ali of 1967.If you want to look at "pre prime" Joe Louis got KO'd for the 10 count.

Yes,Ali "THOUGHT" about quitting after the 10th round in the Trilla' in Manilla.But he got himself back into the fight in the 11th and 12th rounds.

[HughJass]

muhammad ali overrated-best joke ive heard all day

[Obama]

The Cassius Clay of 1963 was far from the Prime Muhammad Ali of 1967.If you want to look at "pre prime" Joe Louis got KO'd for the 10 count.

Yes,Ali "THOUGHT" about quitting after the 10th round in the Trilla' in Manilla.But he got himself back into the fight in the 11th and 12th rounds.

First paragraph, what does that have to do with anything?

Second paragraph, it was after the 14th round that people around Ali's corner got the impression he didn't want to continue.

[boxingbuff]

I consider ALI to be overrated.

Dont get me wrong he is a great and definatley a top 5 h/w atg, but the G.O.A.T no way.

Ali has been elivated to god-like status by the public and i guess its good for boxing.

But not to forget he almost got iced by light heavyweight journeman Henry Cooper

He also almost got took the distance by Chuck Bloody Wepner!

Still on his day he was awesome but no doubt he had a few off days.

Also the general public overrate his power a LOT

The Cassius Clay of 1963 who fought Cooper was not near the Prime Muhammad Ali of 1967.

I watched Ali train for Wepner.Do you really think he trained hard? You don't think he took him lightly?

After Ali's 3 1/2 year lay-off he no longer trained hard for every fight like he did in the 1960's.Angelo Dundee said that Ali came into a fight in the condition that he thought would win him the fight.

[TheGreatA]

Don't try to change the subject you moron. Angelo Dundee was asked specifically if Ali was going to quit before the 15th round. And he said NO, Ali was going to continue. That's what this is about and you're just changing the subject to ignore this fact and ramble on about a whole lot of bollocks like you always do.

You were saying that Ali never wanted to quit. That's why I brought it up, to counter your original argument.

I personally don't think that Ali wanted to quit in the Thrilla in Manila, but he stated immediately after the fight that he had his doubts after the 10th round when Frazier kept coming.

And I knew you would bring up drugged up Ali who was suffering from Parkinsons being battered by a top 10 ATG HW and his CORNER stopping the fight. That just shows what type of lad you are, just a classless piece of ****.

You didn't prove nothing mate. Robinson was still a live fighter, won some rounds too but when Maxim turned up the heat on him, Salty GAY Robinson saw that he was going to be KO'd for the first time. So like the coward he was, he quit and acted like he couldn't continue.

You ran away with your tail between your **** last time in the thunderdome. It's best if you keep your classless mouth shut mate.

I brought it up, because it's equally classless as you saying that Robinson quit against Maxim, insulting him for it (while I never would about Ali), when he was risking serious injury by continuing to fight severely dehydrated (a fact stated by ring doctors who examined him after the bout). As a boxing fan you should know how dangerous that is, the brain becomes more vulnerable when there is no cushion of fluid to protect it. This is what lead to most ring tragedies, for example McClellan, Watson and Anifowoshe as I stated eaerlier.

As for the last part, actually I responded to your arguments, didn't hear from you in days and didn't check back again. Perhaps you responded with something but I didn't get to see it.

[boxingbuff]

Ali was overated. That's been my opinion for some time now. Especially in the 70's. He did beat Foreman in Zaire and Frazier in Manila, but that's it. He lost a lot of fights that he got by crooked decisions. The third Norton fight and the Jimmy Young fight in particular. And I think the decision in the Shavers fight also was kinda disputed.

Muhammad Ali in the 70's after a 3 1/2 year lay-off,was not the same Prime Ali before the lay-off in 1967.

Ali beat Frazier and Forman when 7 and 8 years past his prime!

Ali left a piece of himself in the ring in the Trilla' in Manilla,and was never the same.The next year(1976) he slipped badly losing to Jimmy Young and later in the year to Ken Norton.He was 9 years past his prime of 1967 for crying out loud!! He was 10 years past his prime when beating Shavers!

NOBODY claims the Ali of the 70's was better than the Prime Ali of 1967.

[boxingbuff]

You are right about Robinson. It was the 100 degree heat that ko'd him, as he was pitching a near shutout at the time. It also ko'd the first referee of the fight

It was 110 degrees in Manilla,with wicked humitity!

And it was a brutal fight,fought at a very fast pace.

In his book Frazier said it felt like he was in a pizza oven!

Oh,there was no air conditioning.

[TheGreatA]

"If he does not restore his fluid loss and enters the ring dehydrated, he may be courting the same disaster that ended the last big money-making light heavyweight championship in New York. It happened three years ago this week, when Sugar Ray Robinson fought Joey Maxim.

Dr. Ira McCown of the State Athletic Commission recalls, "The temperature that day was 94�. The humidity was 90%. That evening was so still and quiet you couldn't even see the flags waving in the breeze—because there was no breeze.

"We had a mass of 45,000 spectators on hand, which increased the heat. At ringside we also had an added factor of about 100 klieg lights overhead. That brought the temperature—it was proven—to 103� at the edge of the ring. Under the lights, we feel undoubtedly, it was nearer 130."

All day long Robinson had taken no fluids. He tried to sleep, but couldn't. He got up about 8 o'clock and Dr. Vincent Nardiello tried to give him something to drink. "I wanted to give him a big glass of lemonade with plenty of sugar. I finally gave him iced tea with plenty of sugar, but he refused to take it. 'Doctor,' he said, 'I've been fighting for 14 years. I never took any fluids before a fight.'

"I said, 'Son, this is a tough night. This is a real hot night. You have got to have fluids.' He didn't take a thing, and that's what licked him. He was absolutely dehydrated."

Robinson set a very fast pace, but he was already well dried out. Moreover, the humidity was so high that whatever more he sweated didn't evaporate to keep him cool.

"The first symptom that we noticed," Dr. McCown remembers, "was about the fourth round—and, mark you, the managers and trainers at ringside said, 'Oh Doc, he's in fine shape. Do you see how he is feinting Maxim for the kill?' Robinson was running around the ropes. I think it was the fifth he went to the wrong corner—well, he went the wrong way, but in the 11th he absolutely went to the wrong corner.

"At the 11th round Dr. Schiff [a ring physician] and I went to his corner. Robinson was very glassy-eyed. His body was wet. He was hot. He didn't know where he was. He was anxious to continue, but he was in no condition. He was absolutely out, physically out.

"When we got him back we had to literally carry him back to his dressing room. I have never seen such a state of cerebral excitation. He didn't know where he was. He was cursing—anybody would do that when he gets in that state. It was a very depressing thing to see."

Robinson was suffering from heat exhaustion. He was dried out to begin with. He became further exhausted because he literally lost three to four quarts of fluid right in the ring, and it wasn't being replaced. Robinson set a very fast pace, but he was already well dried out. Moreover, the humidity was so high that whatever more he sweated didn't evaporate to keep him cool.

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.c...22/2/index.htm

Inside the ring, under the lights, where the temperature was 104�, both men kept lighting in their respective styles. They sprayed sweat, but neither seemed un-duly weakened. Robinson took the first 11 rounds with ease. In The New York Times next day Arthur Daley reported, "The middleweight king was truly superb. His combination punches rocked Maxim, and raked him to jaw and body. He hooked and he crossed and he jabbed and he delivered uppercuts. In the seventh Maxim was almost on the verge of a knockout and required smelling salts in his corner." In the same paper James P. Dawson wrote, "Fighting out of a crouch, ignoring a weight handicap of pretty close to twenty pounds, Robinson blazed through the rounds, punching Maxim almost at will."

The fight took a surprising turn at the end of the 10th round, but it did not concern either fighter. Ruby Goldstein, the referee, suddenly caved in. His glistening face turned a horrid gray and. at the bell ending the round, he signaled that he could not continue. The heat had become too much for him. Ray Miller took over at the beginning of the 11th.

Then, not quite so suddenly, but plain for the excited crowd to see, the heat began eating into Sugar Rays reserves. The crowd yelled frantically for him to slow down, to coast along to the end and earn one of the easiest victories of his career. But Robinson continued to dance—on legs that were turning to rubber. Maxim took the 12th round, his first so far, and even began to look like the original figment of Freddie Mills' imagination (and mine). In the 13th Robinson's dance turned to a stagger. He lashed Out awkwardly, missed grotesquely and fell flat on his face. Then he pulled himself up and reeled round the ring. Maxim stared at him, flat-footed, nonplussed, possibly suspecting a trick. No wonder. Nothing in Maxim's career had prepared him to deal with this unprecedented opportunity. As the bell rang at the end of the 13th Robinson stumbled to a neutral corner. He had to be helped over to his stool. His head drooped. Massage and smelling sails failed to revive him. and he was unable to come out for the 14th. The doctor later pronounced it a "heat Stroke."

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.c...88/2/index.htm