Prime Tyson Vs Comeback Foreman

[Southpaw Stinger]

That wouldnt have been a prime Tyson to be fair.

Aye, but it would be a prime George right?

I was only saying that the closest the fight came to actually happening was in 1990.

[number6]

Aye, but it would be a prime George right?

I was only saying that the closest the fight came to actually happening was in 1990.

Ah, i get you.

[StarshipTrooper]

If we're Talking Tyson 85 Vs Foreman 91.. Then I see it very similar to your good self, but in about the 10th or 11th.. No one would'a beaten Tyson in the mid 80's & I include Ali & Louis or a prime Foreman in this equation to.. He took my breath away.. No one ever did that either! Too fast, too spiteful & able to fight for 15 if need be.. He'd have been too much for a 40 year old Foreman.. Prime Foreman may have held on til the end, but would have still lost a wide DC.. The only way I see George doing a number on him, is if they'd fought one another during the 90's.. For example, if the Tyson who beat Brian Nielson fought the Foreman who beat Gerry Cooney, then Tyson gets KO'd mid way...

I have disagree with you there. "Prime" Tyson was beatable and probably by most of the ATGs. He looked unbeatable against the sad-sack competition he fought. In his case this is a classic example of how fighters who generate a lot of offense and get spactacular KOs against sub-par opposition ALWAYS get overrated by the fans.....who are then shocked when they inevitably get their butts kicked. If you name a good to great fighter who was known as for KOs you'll find that at one time or another they were labled "unbeatable". Liston, Foreman, Tyson among the Heavyweights.....Hearns and Trinidad among the Welters: You can come up with tons of examples. I would say a "prime" Tyson would have lost to the 1970s Foreman for no other reason than it's an EXTREMELY bad style matchup for Mike; same thing with Liston. I would take a prime Ali over Tyson easily and would pick a prime Holmes over him as well. Against Frazier I think it's even money. Had they fought in '90 or '91 I think Holyfield would have beaten him then as he did in '97. I would favor Tyson over Lennox and Bowe: 6 out 10 against each. I can't see either Klitschko doing well against him.

Poet

[fight_professor]

Prime Tyson v 2nd Foreman is going Tyson's way. Too fast, too strong and George would be a degraded version of the awesome banger. Heart and chin may keep GF in there, but its getting stopped.

[bojangles1987]

Bottom line is that prime Tyson would have to knock George out in the first 4 or 5, or Foreman is winning. Even the biggest Tyson fans have to admit he simply lost his confidence past the early rounds.

Comeback Foreman would not go down so Tyson would have to lay such a beating that the ref would have to stop it, and I think prime Tyson could do that.

[mickey malone]

I don't think Tyson would have been too successful fighting 15 rounds. He was not very confident in his abilities to go the distance and started pacing himself by the fourth and fifth rounds, thus rarely scoring any knockouts past the early rounds.

Old George may have been too slow but he was incredibly strong and may give Tyson some problems because of that. No one could make him take a step backwards and that includes Holyfield, Moorer, Morrison, Briggs, Cooney, Stewart, Cooper...

I could be entirely wrong with this comparison but I think the fight would go much like the Tyson-Bonecrusher Smith fight did except Foreman would show a lot more heart and make it more competitive. Smith had a couple of decent moments whenever he let his hands go but he mostly chose to hold onto Tyson the whole night, making it perhaps the most boring heavyweight title fight of all time.

The only thing that separates it from the most boring fight was Smiths dominant flurry in the final seconds of the 12th.. Other than that, I agree.. In fact Smith kinda paved the way on how to beat him.. I appreciate what you're saying with regard to 15 & agree that this would not have been the case during the 90's.. But pre Douglas, he could'a still ran through a wall at the end of 12.. Smith didn't tire Tyson, he just frustrated him, by trying to win ugly.. most of the people on Boxing History are very knowledgeable, & as you rightly say, I could also be wrong, but this is just the way I see it... Regards mm

[Benny Leonard]

The only thing that separates it from the most boring fight was Smiths dominant flurry in the final seconds of the 12th.. Other than that, I agree.. In fact Smith kinda paved the way on how to beat him.. I appreciate what you're saying with regard to 15 & agree that this would not have been the case during the 90's.. But pre Douglas, he could'a still ran through a wall at the end of 12.. Smith didn't tire Tyson, he just frustrated him, by trying to win ugly.. most of the people on Boxing History are very knowledgeable, & as you rightly say, I could also be wrong, but this is just the way I see it... Regards mm

Not so sure what Smith showed on how to beat Tyson.
He showed how to survive against him but that's about it.

He played defense most of the night to avoid taking punishment and Tyson won a wide UD Win because of it.

Tillis showed more on how to beat Tyson than anyone at that point but even then, it was also a building fight for a young Tyson because he had yet to go passed 6 rounds so his confidence was still shaky...but still some things you could pick up in that fight that may help you.


Opponents can do that with the best of fighters...even with Foreman.

That was the one fight that when mentioned to Tyson, Tyson always looked embarrassed by but only because Smith wouldn't fight back and he couldn't do anything about it. Why? Because unlike what many seem to think with Tyson breaking down his opponents to destroy him just from his work-rate, he actually needed openings and relied on his opponents to throw first. He's like an aggressive counter-puncher mostly. Sure, he can bang to the body when you are playing cover-up to get you to drop your guard but the key to Tyson was always to make you miss first and then counter off that.


One of the things that would bother me about Tyson going up against Comeback-Foreman by that time is that Tyson was basically training himself and game-planing himself which was a big dissapointment from what we were used to seeing. Tyson was still able to take punishment even after Douglas but it was more and more one shot at a time and trying to cover up. If Forced to fight, yeah, he would do that but that wasn't his first option. And his head-movement was still on the low point even when he fought Ruddock. He just didn't seem like he wanted to be there at that point but maybe that would have changed if he got his title back...not sure. A Belt does wonders for confidence.


Vulnerabilities of Foreman: Slow; not that hard to land a jab on him if you have a solid jab; Could be thrown off balance when punched; threw very wide punches; had a tendency to stick his arms out when trying to keep you off when being punched. Could also be vulnerable by combination punches. Holyfield even hurt him this way.

I also wonder if his power had dipped from his younger days. The younger version of Foreman had more speed and flexibility which helps with power...as well as just being younger and having that extra spark.

Strengths of Big George: Still had a powerful jab and powerful punches; solid chin; stamina was good because he was more relaxed; still had great determination. Strong as an OX.


The advantages that a trained Tyson had (but wasn't going to be going up against come-back Foreman) was that he could use a heavy fast sharp jab when he needed to/told to...had pin-point accuracy; could throw in fast sharp powerful combinations; nice head-movement; had the spark; arsenal of punches; game-plan; etc.

But I do agree that even Tyson when trained with Rooney can be overrated by some and there are some questions that weren't answered as far as being tested on the absolute highest level of competition.

[Benny Leonard]

This Matchup is one of my all time fav fantasy fights.. And should have happend.


Personaly i think George KOs Tyson within 8 rounds, Tyson was a machine and a great fighter in his Prime, But was hardly tested in a Brutal fight until he met Buster Douglas, Foreman is on a diffrent level, he could take punishment that would put 99.9% of men in Hospital.

I see Mike Coming out fast looking to KO Foreman but Foreman surviving, by round 3-4 George will Begin to Push Mike away and throwing Big uppercuts while Mike comes in, Mike was open to Uppercuts, once Foreman would Land one of those bombs Mike would be in trouble.

Thats My Opinion Though, Lets Hear Yours.



ROOSTER

What Douglas proved about Tyson was that Tyson was at a big disadvantage when training himself which could and did lead to him living a decadent life-style with poor training habits which including ballooning up 40+ pounds between fights (which was different from the normal 15 pound increase at his peak) because he was inactive and allowed to do what he wanted. That when not trained, he was declined overall boxer/fighter with no true game-plan.
All this while trying to battle a 6'3+, 230 pound athletic boxer who was well trained and motivated that had a solid jab and powerful punches (which according to McCall were harder than Lennox's punches).

Floyd Patterson's note to Tyson was...."Remember what got you there."


Now could that version of Douglas have troubled a well trained Tyson even with Rooney? Yeah, probably, but I don't think it is the same results as we saw an unfit Tyson had against him.
I still think Douglas should have given Tyson the rematch that he wanted.

[mickey malone]

I have disagree with you there. "Prime" Tyson was beatable and probably by most of the ATGs. He looked unbeatable against the sad-sack competition he fought. In his case this is a classic example of how fighters who generate a lot of offense and get spactacular KOs against sub-par opposition ALWAYS get overrated by the fans.....who are then shocked when they inevitably get their butts kicked. If you name a good to great fighter who was known as for KOs you'll find that at one time or another they were labled "unbeatable". Liston, Foreman, Tyson among the Heavyweights.....Hearns and Trinidad among the Welters: You can come up with tons of examples. I would say a "prime" Tyson would have lost to the 1970s Foreman for no other reason than it's an EXTREMELY bad style matchup for Mike; same thing with Liston. I would take a prime Ali over Tyson easily and would pick a prime Holmes over him as well. Against Frazier I think it's even money. Had they fought in '90 or '91 I think Holyfield would have beaten him then as he did in '97. I would favor Tyson over Lennox and Bowe: 6 out 10 against each. I can't see either Klitschko doing well against him.

Poet

Well it's virtually impossible to agree on everything, but I agree wholeheartedly with your last sentence.. I'd suggest that the division then, was a lot better than it is now, but maybe not as good as during the 90's.. Even so.. Who could travel the distance with him? Going into the early 90's, there were only 3.. Smith, Tucker & Ruddock (not including pre championship ie Tillis & Green) Then there were devastating KO's for everyone else, a lot of whom had never been KO'd before.. Where I disagree, is that it would be Tysons style that would be a nightmare for Foreman, as opposed to the other way round.. Are there any common opponents? Alex Stewart was no slouch, & he turned Foremans head into a pumpkin where as Tyson dispached him in a couple of minutes.. It also has to be noted that Stewarts style was not too unlike Foremans.. Tyson also dealt with Lou Savrese in compatible fashion, although granted, that was during the early 90's I think..
The only other one I can think of is Holyfield, who beat both of them, Tyson, far more covincingly, but I've already stated that 90's Tyson wasn't a shadow of the 80's version.. Foreman is similar to Hopkins in that there isn't a lot of difference between prime, & past prime, if so, it hasn't shown up to dramaticaly in results.. Both have lost a bit of speed, that's all.. With Tyson, he was unbeatable in his prime, but because of his lifestyle, it only lasted a few years.. No he really was unbeatable.. I've boxed, I've been in & around boxing all my life, I've had more street tare ups than an alley cat, spent countless hours, studying the old,old school, been to prison & I have never seen anything like it, much the same as a peak RJJ or SRR.. Completely unique.. With respect, but Joe Frazier would'a been lucky to get to the 6th.. Tyson almost was Frazier, but with about 15%/20% more in every department.. And, from my life's experiences I'd lay my house he'd have totally ****ed Liston, & so would Foreman..
The 84 to 88 Tyson KO'd people & then KO'd them again b4 they hit the deck.. These are the common denominators.. Neither fighter likes to take a backward step & both like to control the fight.. I took note that during the 2nd coming of Foreman, he'd often fight off the ropes when he needed a rest.. The younger Foreman didn't do this.. Against a prime Tyson, I think it's fair to say that Foreman would need to move a bit faster & in general, work harder.. This would mean him employing this tactic.. This was also Tysons jewel.. In my opinion, this was the mistake made by 90% of his victims.. Because of his age, he'd have no choice, he'd be stopped for sure, but probably on his feet.. Just to reiterate Hopkins, he now does this also, but there aint no 80's Tyson in the lower weight divisions at the moment.. Remember, all of the fighters who beat Mike, stayed off the ropes & engaged him centre ring.. A 40 something Foreman would only be able do this in short bursts, as perfectly illustrated Vs Moorer.. Now what would 80's Tyson do to Moorer? I really don't think anyone needs to answer that, well I hope not lol..
I can only agree to Foreman winning in 2 scenarios: 1. If they fought in the 90's and 2. If they fought right now lol..

With regard to Prime Vs Prime, I'll reluctantly agree 50%: Foreman early or Tyson late.. Regards mm

[MANGLER]

If Tyson had 12 rd stamina, he coulda won. But I think George in his comeback would stop him.