How would Frazier fare in today's climate?

[GoogleMe]

As opposed to you overrating the current cesspool of heavyweights? :thinking9:

Poet

I don't think that the heavyweight division now is as awful as you guys think. Chambers, Solis, Povetkin, Haye, Adamek, Samuel Peter, Thompson and so on, are solid heavyweights and they all get beat (Adamek and Povetkin is left for a good beating, but their time will come). Don't tell me that the old heavyweight had incredible movement from what you've seen, cause they really did take a punch.
The sport has evolved, Wladimir and Vitali are a clear example of that. I agree that the division is not as strong as it were when Ali ruled the division, but I think it's compareable to Holmes' time. Vitali and Wladimir is an example of good nutrition and new trainingsmethods and the evolution of the sport. People hate that it's eastern europeans that rule the heavyweight division at the moment, it's cool - I like the flashyness of American boxing aswell. Frazier were a good boxer and fighter, I just don't see his "unbelieveable good movement" come into effect. Wladimir is TOO strong for him, and yes it's easy to just say strong, but Frazier would get destroyed Foreman style vs both brothers. That's my point of view.

[StarshipTrooper]

I don't think that the heavyweight division now is as awful as you guys think. Chambers, Solis, Povetkin, Haye, Adamek, Samuel Peter, Thompson and so on, are solid heavyweights and they all get beat (Adamek and Povetkin is left for a good beating, but their time will come). Don't tell me that the old heavyweight had incredible movement from what you've seen, cause they really did take a punch.
The sport has evolved, Wladimir and Vitali are a clear example of that. I agree that the division is not as strong as it were when Ali ruled the division, but I think it's compareable to Holmes' time. Vitali and Wladimir is an example of good nutrition and new trainingsmethods and the evolution of the sport. People hate that it's eastern europeans that rule the heavyweight division at the moment, it's cool - I like the flashyness of American boxing aswell. Frazier were a good boxer and fighter, I just don't see his "unbelieveable good movement" come into effect. Wladimir is TOO strong for him, and yes it's easy to just say strong, but Frazier would get destroyed Foreman style vs both brothers. That's my point of view.

^^^^^ I believe I've already answered that with this post >>>>>

The problem is that evolution (biological or otherwise) isn't a process of improvement per se.....it's a process of change but those changes aren't always for the better. The vast majority of changes that you see evolving in practically every field are lateral changes: Neither better nor worse, just different.

There is also the problem of the limitations of any given field of endeavor: You essentially max out the potential improvements that can be made. There's only so many ways you can throw a left hook and those were figured out long ago. It's not like technology which is pretty opened ended (though it certainly has it's share of dead ends in certain specific fields).....but even technology has historically gone backwards at times (remember the Dark Age?).

[New England]

knocks out wladimir messy and late

his last fight (no joke, i think it would end his career)

and outworks vitali to become undisputed champ

short reign, retires undefeated after experiencing a dearth of competition, goes into show biz

[GoogleMe]

knocks out wladimir messy and late

his last fight (no joke, i think it would end his career)

and outworks vitali to become undisputed champ

short reign, retires undefeated after experiencing a dearth of competition, goes into show biz

Outworks Vitali? Even an old Vitali can throw up to 1k punches a fight, that's not gonna happen. I can see a chance of him beating Wladimir by a more suspect chin, but Vitali - not a chance, he's a BEAST. You gotta remember that his only "real" loss is to Lewis, and he took that fight on a VERY short notice - especially comparing to the fighter he were going up against. A shoulder injury took 4 GREAT years away from Vitali.

I like what you say Poet, but you gotta understand that todays techonology and evolution of training facilities have made fighters stronger, faster and more endurant. We see it in ALL sports, especially in the Olympics. I just don't believe in that old school fighters just dominates the fighters of now. Vitali and Wladimir would be hell for anyone in history, not saying they beat all - far from, but people tend to not give them their credit. We'll never know what would happen, but don't overestimate the guys from the past. I respect all era's, heck Duran is my favorite fighter of all times. I belive Ali would beat Wladimir also, and he's the greatest HW of all time by my ratings. Frazier does not stand a chance, maybe 1/5 he beats Wladimir 0/100 he beats Vitali. I rest my case.

[StarshipTrooper]

Outworks Vitali? Even an old Vitali can throw up to 1k punches a fight, that's not gonna happen. I can see a chance of him beating Wladimir by a more suspect chin, but Vitali - not a chance, he's a BEAST. You gotta remember that his only "real" loss is to Lewis, and he took that fight on a VERY short notice - especially comparing to the fighter he were going up against. A shoulder injury took 4 GREAT years away from Vitali.

I like what you say Poet, but you gotta understand that todays techonology and evolution of training facilities have made fighters stronger, faster and more endurant. We see it in ALL sports, especially in the Olympics. I just don't believe in that old school fighters just dominates the fighters of now. Vitali and Wladimir would be hell for anyone in history, not saying they beat all - far from, but people tend to not give them their credit. We'll never know what would happen, but don't overestimate the guys from the past. I respect all era's, heck Duran is my favorite fighter of all times. I belive Ali would beat Wladimir also, and he's the greatest HW of all time by my ratings. Frazier does not stand a chance, maybe 1/5 he beats Wladimir 0/100 he beats Vitali. I rest my case.

More endurant? Is that's why today's fighters throw fewer punches and STILL gas out in fewer than 12 rounds let alone going 15? And who the hell are the Klits faster than? Primo Carnera? They sure as hell ain't faster then the vast majority of top Heavyweights that I've seen. And btw, Boxing is NOT track and field. In boxing skill trumps athleticism.....as it does in most organized sports that aren't track and field related.

Poet

[The_Demon]

As opposed to you overrating the current cesspool of heavyweights? :thinking9:

Poet

Haha well said

[paulsinghnl]

the Klitschkos have a laser like jab which is very fast and set up that right hand very deviously, hits really hard. but if George Foreman's been ranked as history's hardest punchers and Frazier kept getting up, Frazier would be able to take their jabs and left hook 'em down to a fine powder IMO.

I love the Klitschko's, they're very boring but super effective, fast on their feet, hard, underrated fast combinations, but Wlad without his warrior heart will lose for sure. Vitali would lose too because i see Lewis getting beat by Frazier, thus Frazier would work hard against Vitali, he was a beast.... Smokin' Joe!!!

[McGoorty]

I don't think that the heavyweight division now is as awful as you guys think. Chambers, Solis, Povetkin, Haye, Adamek, Samuel Peter, Thompson and so on, are solid heavyweights and they all get beat (Adamek and Povetkin is left for a good beating, but their time will come). Don't tell me that the old heavyweight had incredible movement from what you've seen, cause they really did take a punch.
The sport has evolved, Wladimir and Vitali are a clear example of that. I agree that the division is not as strong as it were when Ali ruled the division, but I think it's compareable to Holmes' time. Vitali and Wladimir is an example of good nutrition and new trainingsmethods and the evolution of the sport. People hate that it's eastern europeans that rule the heavyweight division at the moment, it's cool - I like the flashyness of American boxing aswell. Frazier were a good boxer and fighter, I just don't see his "unbelieveable good movement" come into effect. Wladimir is TOO strong for him, and yes it's easy to just say strong, but Frazier would get destroyed Foreman style vs both brothers. That's my point of view.

Look I generally support Poet in this, but the Heavyweight division is much different now. I like Adamek as a fighter, he's one of the best P4P fighters I've seen in years, when this LITTLE guy fought Golota, I feared for Adameks life. Adamek was simply awesome in that fight. But HE"S TOO SMALL. I think it's time for a Super Heavyweight division, if that happens in time, Adamek could win the HW title, but not while these super giants are everywhere. Pound for pound these giants are inferior to the smaller fighters, the lean on each other and fight at a snails pace. I can't be bothered watching them, and I'm sick of people trying to compare men half their size (to the giants) like the Dempseys, a 6 ft 7in Dempsey would be invincible, of that I'm sure, a 6 ft 7in Dempsey kills Ali. There, I said it..As far as from Light HW down though, they are EXACTLY the same weight as they've always been, but today's fighters are mostly what old-timers would call a preliminary fighter, either a 4 rounder, or 6 at best. But the elite are still great, there's just not as many, this is where I agree with Poet and the others who think along those lines.

[bojangles1987]

Look I generally support Poet in this, but the Heavyweight division is much different now. I like Adamek as a fighter, he's one of the best P4P fighters I've seen in years, when this LITTLE guy fought Golota, I feared for Adameks life. Adamek was simply awesome in that fight. But HE"S TOO SMALL. I think it's time for a Super Heavyweight division, if that happens in time, Adamek could win the HW title, but not while these super giants are everywhere. Pound for pound these giants are inferior to the smaller fighters, the lean on each other and fight at a snails pace. I can't be bothered watching them, and I'm sick of people trying to compare men half their size (to the giants) like the Dempseys, a 6 ft 7in Dempsey would be invincible, of that I'm sure, a 6 ft 7in Dempsey kills Ali. There, I said it..As far as from Light HW down though, they are EXACTLY the same weight as they've always been, but today's fighters are mostly what old-timers would call a preliminary fighter, either a 4 rounder, or 6 at best. But the elite are still great, there's just not as many, this is where I agree with Poet and the others who think along those lines.

There have been huge heavyweights before. The only reason there are so many mid to high 200 pound heavyweights these days is because outside of the Klitschkos, who are in great shape, those heavyweights are fat. They are not in the optimum shape they should be to have their best stamina, speed, power, etc.

Really, heavyweights aren't that much bigger.

[McGoorty]

the Klitschkos have a laser like jab which is very fast and set up that right hand very deviously, hits really hard. but if George Foreman's been ranked as history's hardest punchers and Frazier kept getting up, Frazier would be able to take their jabs and left hook 'em down to a fine powder IMO.

I love the Klitschko's, they're very boring but super effective, fast on their feet, hard, underrated fast combinations, but Wlad without his warrior heart will lose for sure. Vitali would lose too because i see Lewis getting beat by Frazier, thus Frazier would work hard against Vitali, he was a beast.... Smokin' Joe!!!

Foreman is one of the great punchers, that just proved how tough Frazier was, just not tough enough to stay up.