Wladimir Klitschko

[BennyST]

** You talking about Wlad or a prime Ali?

Just out of curiosity...Have you ever managed to not put a disparaging comment somewhere into your posts about Ali?

It reminds me of Daggum. No matter how completely unrelated the thread and how completely off-topic it is he somehow manages to throw in a little Calzaghe bash throughout. Or he doesn't even go for the subtle approach and just tosses a slinging comment straight into your face.

Weird.

[Mersey]

Because of the level of competition he has faced and that most people these days cannot name even 1 heavyweight.

[LondonRingRules]

Just out of curiosity...Have you ever managed to not put a disparaging comment somewhere into your posts about Ali?

It reminds me of Daggum. No matter how completely unrelated the thread and how completely off-topic it is he somehow manages to throw in a little Calzaghe bash throughout. Or he doesn't even go for the subtle approach and just tosses a slinging comment straight into your face.
Weird.

** Dadgumit, I don't know Daggum from Dadburnitall, but I do know right at age 33, Ali was 45-2 with a title record of 11-1 and at the same age Wlad is 52-3, with more KOs than Ali had wins and title record of 13-2.

So when someone brings up boring fighters who were good, naturally, Ali comes to mind as it really wasn't entertaining to see him dismantle ailing Patterson and Williams, a pub doorman like Brian Barley Malt London, or The Lion of Flanders, Coopman, or Richard The Great Dunn, or in life and death struggles with Young, Evangelista and Leon who scarcely made a dent in the rankings before he signed em up.

Given that the greatest had his fair share of dull fights and critics, surely Wlad deserves no less comparison.

But wait, among the true believers, mentioning Ali in the same breath as Wlad constitutes blasphemy!

Hear, hear!!!!!

[Hawkins]

** Dadgumit, I don't know Daggum from Dadburnitall, but I do know right at age 33, Ali was 45-2 with a title record of 11-1 and at the same age Wlad is 52-3, with more KOs than Ali had wins and title record of 13-2.

So when someone brings up boring fighters who were good, naturally, Ali comes to mind as it really wasn't entertaining to see him dismantle ailing Patterson and Williams, a pub doorman like Brian Barley Malt London, or The Lion of Flanders, Coopman, or Richard The Great Dunn, or in life and death struggles with Young, Evangelista and Leon who scarcely made a dent in the rankings before he signed em up.

Given that the greatest had his fair share of dull fights and critics, surely Wlad deserves no less comparison.

But wait, among the true believers, mentioning Ali in the same breath as Wlad constitutes blasphemy!

Hear, hear!!!!!

Good grief, just when I think I've seen it all from you you manage to top yourself. Even though I detect abit sarcasm in the above post I have no doubts of the underlying seriousness.

Comparing Wlad's "accomplishments" to Ali in any way is (I hate to use this term again in a description of something you've said but it does fit very well) ludicrous. Now all of us know your personal disdain for the man, and your attempts to discredit him are near legend but give me a break..one won over a prime George Foreman is equal to Wlad's entire career.

One thing I see interesting in your "evaluations" are the exclusion of Wlad's awe inspiring performances against Ross Purity, Corrie Sanders and Lamon Brewster..I mean if you are going to mention his record at least tell the entire tale...that 3 in the L column is 3 KNOCKOUT losses to has-beens and never weres.

Some of your arguments do hold a minuscule amount of moisture however this one does not.

[LondonRingRules]

Comparing Wlad's "accomplishments" to Ali in any way is (I hate to use this term again in a description of something you've said but it does fit very well) ludicrous. Now all of us know your personal disdain for the man, and your attempts to discredit him are near legend but give me a break..one won over a prime George Foreman is equal to Wlad's entire career.

** Sorry, but one win over Foreman in a fight where his trainer admits to adjusting the ropes does not a career make.

You poor chaps lack the ability to understand context which is why you are doomed to opinions that have no gravitas and change daily. Foreman was a nice victory that put Ali back in the mix, but Foreman was not yet Foreman the Legend that he made himself in his comeback.

But guess what? Ali begins to crack top 10 lists for the first time after this bout, or did you forget that the typical geniuses(genii) of the day had considered him on the same level as Wlad today, ie, a nothing until Foreman.

The comparisons are apt because both storied Olympic gold medalists, Wlad a superheavy and Ali a light heavy. Both turn pro at a very young age. Ali got a title shot much earlier due to him being seen as an easy mark whereas Wlad and Vitali were avoided by the unified champ due to fighting out of Germany and being such large, dangerous threats.

Lewis was no Sonny Liston and saw no need to face the prime top contenders, the Klitschkos and Byrd, when he had a much bigger legacy bout with a past it Tyson coming to fruition.

Well, Wlad has no Foreman, no Tyson to beat, no legacy bout unless Lewis comes out of retirement, but he has beaten the top guys of his day and one could argue that Peter was considered as a poor man's Foreman. That was a pretty dramatic scrap, more so than Zaire of which 80% of that fight was Ali on the ropes absorbing a pasting by a strangely clumsy Foreman.

If Ali is as good as advertised, one would think his legacy would hold up. I don't see the Klitchkos as a threat to his legacy, but they do give his legacy some context since he is now seen as one of the last of the smaller heavy champs. Hey, Rocky one of the smallest champs ever, and his legacy holds up well, so why the fuss?

Some now pick Lewis as their top all time heavy, so does that threaten you as well? Well, you endured "other" selections to put together your list, and Vitali made the list, so perhaps you just have a hysteric hissy fit any time you think that I challenge one of your cherished notions.

Yeah, that's it..............

[RightCross94]

wlad is not a great fighter, never has been, never will be

[Hawkins]

** Sorry, but one win over Foreman in a fight where his trainer admits to adjusting the ropes does not a career make.

You poor chaps lack the ability to understand context which is why you are doomed to opinions that have no gravitas and change daily. Foreman was a nice victory that put Ali back in the mix, but Foreman was not yet Foreman the Legend that he made himself in his comeback.

If I lack the ability to understand context then you certainly lack the ability to be, and to form, effective impartial opinions. Oh sure you claim that your opinions are nonpartisan but one doesn't have to look far to see your arguments that are propped up with an underpinning of contempt.

Regardless, to be so educated and 'wise' you certainly must have missed the gist of Foreman's earlier career. Before he fought Ali he was the most fear fighter on the planet, a two fisted detroyer that was annihilating everyone in his path. It wasn't until after the Ali defeat that the sharp criticism was leveled at Foreman. Sure, Foreman's later career rebuilt (to an extent) what once was, but to totally dismiss Ali's earlier win as merely 'nice' is very misleading.

The entire point is Wlad has never overcome any kind of adversity. He faces adversity and he gets planted under the canvas..furthermore he has to have his brother come behind him and avenge him when he gets starched.

But guess what? Ali begins to crack top 10 lists for the first time after this bout, or did you forget that the typical geniuses(genii) of the day had considered him on the same level as Wlad today, ie, a nothing until Foreman.

Considering that alot of the geniuses of the day were still swayed by Ali's religious background, and draft stance, you should take that with a grain of salt. By the time Ali fought Foreman he had already faced, and defeated, more talent than Wlad could imagine. A legacy is built on doing things no one thinks you can do.... not beating a list of cans and getting KTFO by fighters you are picked to destroy.. not once, but three times. Wlad is good for the times but all-time great? not a chance.

The comparisons are apt because both storied Olympic gold medalists, Wlad a superheavy and Ali a light heavy. Both turn pro at a very young age. Ali got a title shot much earlier due to him being seen as an easy mark whereas Wlad and Vitali were avoided by the unified champ due to fighting out of Germany and being such large, dangerous threats.

The gold medal and the professional start are where the comparisons end. However I would like to point out that you again have pulled the rug out from under your own feet. You mention the Ali-Liston fight.....but fail to mention its a prime example of what made Ali great...overcoming the odds and pulling off something no one thought possible. Wlad can't say the same thing....he not only has never overcome, he has succumbed to lesser fighters on three occasions during his fighting prime and only avenging one of those losses.

Lewis was no Sonny Liston and saw no need to face the prime top contenders, the Klitschkos and Byrd, when he had a much bigger legacy bout with a past it Tyson coming to fruition.

Well, Wlad has no Foreman, no Tyson to beat, no legacy bout unless Lewis comes out of retirement, but he has beaten the top guys of his day and one could argue that Peter was considered as a poor man's Foreman. That was a pretty dramatic scrap, more so than Zaire of which 80% of that fight was Ali on the ropes absorbing a pasting by a strangely clumsy Foreman.

If Ali is as good as advertised, one would think his legacy would hold up. I don't see the Klitchkos as a threat to his legacy, but they do give his legacy some context since he is now seen as one of the last of the smaller heavy champs. Hey, Rocky one of the smallest champs ever, and his legacy holds up well, so why the fuss?

Wow, should I even respond to that? Comparing Wlad/Peter to Foreman/Ali? I think that speaks volumes on its own 'merit' Regardless, your assertions that Ali's legacy doesn't hold up is, to use a very adequate word, ludicrous. Maybe you missed the point that many of todays top 'experts' have Ali #1 on the ATG heavies list? I mean seeing as how you take past experts opinions as gospel it stands to reason the modern ones hold as much weight.

Ali lends credence to his own legacy my man, the Klitschkos are no threat to him. Never have been, never will be. If anything else they strengthen the position he already has by showing it takes a special person to overcome the many obstacles that Ali faced in the ring.

In the Klitschkos we have 3 losses by brutal beatdown and one loss where one quits on his stool against featherfist Chris Byrd. Quite a list of accomplishments there. Aside from that, if the Klitschkos wanted to 'cement' their legacy they would fight one another instead of taking ********** photos together.... but thats never going to happen.

Some now pick Lewis as their top all time heavy, so does that threaten you as well? Well, you endured "other" selections to put together your list, and Vitali made the list, so perhaps you just have a hysteric hissy fit any time you think that I challenge one of your cherished notions.

Yeah, that's it..............

I always find it amusing that you can't stick to the fighters at hand...you always have to bring others into the conversation in some capacity. Is that because most of your arguments hold no weight? Oh yeah, I forgot...you are all about context.

[portuge puncher]

ive neva looked forward to one of his fights, boring ass fighter, fighting joke ass bums, thats his legacy

[LondonRingRules]

......... Wlad has never overcome any kind of adversity. He faces adversity and he gets planted under the canvas..furthermore he has to have his brother come behind him and avenge him when he gets starched.

Considering that alot of the geniuses of the day were still swayed by Ali's religious background, and draft stance, you should take that with a grain of salt. By the time Ali fought Foreman he had already faced, and defeated, more talent than Wlad could imagine. A legacy is built on doing things no one thinks you can do.... not beating a list of cans and getting KTFO by fighters you are picked to destroy.. not once, but three times. Wlad is good for the times but all-time great? not a chance.

The gold medal and the professional start are where the comparisons end. However I would like to point out that you again have pulled the rug out from under your own feet. You mention the Ali-Liston fight.....but fail to mention its a prime example of what made Ali great...overcoming the odds and pulling off something no one thought possible. Wlad can't say the same thing....he not only has never overcome, he has succumbed to lesser fighters on three occasions during his fighting prime and only avenging one of those losses.

** Oh dear, one scarcely knows where to hold your limp hand and lead you through your morass.

Point 1: Wlad overcame the touted, undefeated KO monster of his day his day, enduring repeated rabbit punches, being pushed down while off balance and then additionally rabbit punched, the KDs, to otherwise put on a masterclass of boxing and punching in a dog fight everyone said he would quit in.

Well, one can excuse you for never seeing the fight as you had other nonsense to fry up.

Point 2: You say Ali had defeated more talent than Wlad could imagine. Names, deary, hows about 5 names against the 5 best Wlad has defeated. You chose Ali's, and I'll chose Wlad's. Head to head in sequential order. Stay tuned boys, this could be more fun than a barrel of 'roided up monkeys!

Point 3: As far as pulling out something nobody thought possible regarding the Liston fight, well, go review the two Patterson fights Liston had leading up to this and go review Jones/Cooper bouts Ali had leading up to this, and find out who's gonna want to bet on Ali.

Last I checked, it was Liston doing the pulling out, quitting both fights. Hey, I don't set the odds, didn't tell Sonny to become a mob fighter, and didn't tell him how to run his business with the mob, but the results are clear. Liston quit, or in the 2 case was confused by one of the all time great incompetent performances by a ref in ring history, Jersey Joe Walcott.

Please pay special attention to point 2. I could use a little extra sport today.........

[Hawkins]

** Oh dear, one scarcely knows where to hold your limp hand and lead you through your morass.

Point 1: Wlad overcame the touted, undefeated KO monster of his day his day, enduring repeated rabbit punches, being pushed down while off balance and then additionally rabbit punched, the KDs, to otherwise put on a masterclass of boxing and punching in a dog fight everyone said he would quit in.

Just who do you consider the "ko monster' of the day? and exactly who did he defeat to be considered a "ko monster"? if you're talking about Sam Peter then clue me in onto who he defeated to be considered such a destroyer? Did he upend an alltime great in devastating fashion?

Just because a vast majority of people predicted he could do great things doesn't make him a "monster"...so please, drop some of your "knowledge" and educate me on who this great "monster" was that evokes such great luster on Wlad's career. If indeed it is Samuel Peter we should end this right now, no way in hell can you base a victory of Peter in the same class as Ali/Foreman?

Well, one can excuse you for never seeing the fight as you had other nonsense to fry up.

I love it. Just because someone doesn't agree you assume no one has seen the fight. If indeed you do box you may need to look into quitting, apparently you've taken one too many shots to the dome because judging by alot of your "skewed" views thats the case. If you need some help I know a great neurologist.

Point 2: You say Ali had defeated more talent than Wlad could imagine. Names, deary, hows about 5 names against the 5 best Wlad has defeated. You chose Ali's, and I'll chose Wlad's. Head to head in sequential order. Stay tuned boys, this could be more fun than a barrel of 'roided up monkeys!

Okay lets go....start with Sonny Liston. Who exactly has Wlad defeated that can compare to Liston? Same with Foreman & Frazier. What highly touted contenders did Wlad defeat that can compare to fighters like Quarry and Bonavena? I can't wait to see you try to shoot holes in the 60's-70's era heavyweights because I'm pretty sure that is the path you are about to take.

There is no one on Wlad's list of wins that can compare to those 5, regardless of what you roll out. So please, educate us.

Point 3: As far as pulling out something nobody thought possible regarding the Liston fight, well, go review the two Patterson fights Liston had leading up to this and go review Jones/Cooper bouts Ali had leading up to this, and find out who's gonna want to bet on Ali.

Last I checked, it was Liston doing the pulling out, quitting both fights. Hey, I don't set the odds, didn't tell Sonny to become a mob fighter, and didn't tell him how to run his business with the mob, but the results are clear. Liston quit, or in the 2 case was confused by one of the all time great incompetent performances by a ref in ring history, Jersey Joe Walcott.

Please pay special attention to point 2. I could use a little extra sport today.........

You take the cake old man, I give you that. Your statements are only matched by your lack of insight into the venom you spew. Liston was a 8-1/10-1 favorite (i dont remember which) going into the fight. Hardly anyone gave Ali a chance. Ali even admitted he was scared of Liston and his intimidation tactics. Ali went in and totally outclassed and frustrated Liston. For you to even try and say otherwise is ridiculous.

It is absolutely f.cking amazing the lengths you go to discredit Ali. What did he do? Steal your girl back in the day so that you still hold a grudge?