Remebering Tyson

[StarshipTrooper]

I never looked at Louis' lists of wins as being top quality opposition, rather his 25 title defenses and longevity. I won't kid myself into thinking he fought a list of ATG's. I won't kid myself into think Mike Tyson fought garbage competition either.

Louis cracks the no.2 spot on my ATG Hw list because he had a very long successful title run.

Bernard Hopkins is my second favorite fighter of all time, but I think his opposition is highly overated on these boards, but he made an excellent run at MW (and his competition was decent).

There is no other way to spin it, Louis fought in an era when a guy like Tony Galento was one of the top dogs for years, that has to amount to something when talking about opposition quality.

Mikes division admittedly was in a low after the 70's prior to him. The heavyweight division has never been consistent, I can think of only 2 era's that produced overall solid competition. Where as the WW division for example has always produced great fighters in every era.

Tyson however doesn't have the heart of a champion for very long, he starts slacking off and get's Koed by Buster Douglas, an average rate fighter who had flip flopping training schedules. Goes to prison and doesn't avenge his loss, it was only his climb to the title that he showed heart, any of his wins after wards were based a lot on his opponent's fear.

This is often why the Tyson that fought Spinks is considered the best version. Tyson wanted to win that night, and he did.

Joe Louis would be fighting right to the end, so in his respectful era he was a greater champion, even if his opposition wasn't amazing.

Careful now Apples: You'll get accused of nuthugging Louis becuase you didn't say all of Louis' opponents were "bums". Come to think of it, you'll probably get accused of "hating" Tyson for not saying everyone Mike fought was an ATG

Poet

[GJC]

No Louis was a great champion to say otherwise is blind. As for the strength of his era, not the strongest but not one of the weakest either. The Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Norton era was exceptionally deep and I would imagine the likes of Quarry and Shavers would have earnta title in a different era. THat said Louis fought and beat a fair few HW title holders and in over 10 years certinly allowed the HW division to produce a challenger. I would also say that when he was finished so to speak that his effort against the new coming man Marciano was far more credible than Holmes against Tyson or Ali v Holmes. I do think though to rate Tony Galento as a top ranking HW in Louis era is stretching it. My understanding was that Galento got his shot more as a result of a good publicity campaign than as a credible challenger.

[StarshipTrooper]

No Louis was a great champion to say otherwise is blind. As for the strength of his era, not the strongest but not one of the weakest either. The Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Norton era was exceptionally deep and I would imagine the likes of Quarry and Shavers would have earnta title in a different era. THat said Louis fought and beat a fair few HW title holders and in over 10 years certinly allowed the HW division to produce a challenger. I would also say that when he was finished so to speak that his effort against the new coming man Marciano was far more credible than Holmes against Tyson or Ali v Holmes. I do think though to rate Tony Galento as a top ranking HW in Louis era is stretching it. My understanding was that Galento got his shot more as a result of a good publicity campaign than as a credible challenger.

He punch and he could take a punch. Toughness was thought of much higher as a quality than it seems to be today. If it came down to it I would certainly pick him over Trevor Berbick: Easily one of the worst fighters ever to hold a Heavyweight belt.

Poet

[Boogie Nights]

He punch and he could take a punch. Toughness was thought of much higher as a quality than it seems to be today. If it came down to it I would certainly pick him over Trevor Berbick: Easily one of the worst fighters ever to hold a Heavyweight belt.

Poet

and if it came down to it i would certainly pick Tyson over James Braddock, and to finish the job in less than 8 rounds.

[Boogie Nights]

Careful now Apples: You'll get accused of nuthugging Louis becuase you didn't say all of Louis' opponents were "bums". Come to think of it, you'll probably get accused of "hating" Tyson for not saying everyone Mike fought was an ATG

Poet

are you talking about yourself? sounds like something out of your Poetry book

boxing fan: Yeah Tyson was a decent heavyweight, i enjoy watching him fight

Poet: You're a kool aid cum drinking idiot and the biggest idiot on this site. I have no patience for these tyson ****suckers. That iron prison ***** doesnt deserve to have anything good said about him.

Typical Poet.

[them_apples]

No Louis was a great champion to say otherwise is blind. As for the strength of his era, not the strongest but not one of the weakest either. The Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Norton era was exceptionally deep and I would imagine the likes of Quarry and Shavers would have earnta title in a different era. THat said Louis fought and beat a fair few HW title holders and in over 10 years certinly allowed the HW division to produce a challenger. I would also say that when he was finished so to speak that his effort against the new coming man Marciano was far more credible than Holmes against Tyson or Ali v Holmes. I do think though to rate Tony Galento as a top ranking HW in Louis era is stretching it. My understanding was that Galento got his shot more as a result of a good publicity campaign than as a credible challenger.

Galento was in the top 10 for a long time during Louis era, and me personally, I don't think that guy would even beat todays slew of HW's. For one, the guy was a fat SMW, as he started his career weighing around that (and was still fat). He had no defense at all, even Samuel Peter has better defense than Tony Galento. Louis did crack him in only a few rounds, but Galento was considered one of the better HW's during Louis day.

What needs to be taken into consideration is that Louis did stand above the rest, I don't think his competition was great - but he dismantled them pretty easily.

If we are going to argue greatness, Louis had a much longer and memorable reign than Tyson but I really can't see the men he fought being better than any of the average rate contenders Tyson fought.

Looking at Louis' record, it seems he fought his best competition towards the end of his career. This is also when he started suffering some losses. (I consider the Walcott fight a robbery). Tyson's resume has some great names on it to towards the end of his career (I'm not talking about age, only prime) This is also when some losses start showing up. So we really don't know how good these guys would have been had they met prime for prime with their respective opponents (Tyson vs Holyfield, Louis vs Charles etc).

For the record, I see Prime Louis beating Rocky by either TKO or UD, and Tyson beating Lennox Lewis by UD (probably not by Ko due to Lewis' height) Although I think a prime Holyfield still would have his number.

@ Poet, are you sure you aren't holding any dislike for Berbick because he beat Ali at the end of his career? Berbick was bad but I can't see a guy like Galento overstepping him? On top of that Galento's record is littered with losses. Although I'll admit I don't know a whole lot about Galento.

[StarshipTrooper]

@Poet, are you sure you aren't holding any dislike for Berbick because he beat Ali at the end of his career? Berbick was bad but I can't see a guy like Galento overstepping him? On top of that Galento's record is littered with losses. Although I'll admit I don't know a whole lot about Galento.

Not at all. That was Ali's fault for hanging around too damn long. I remember that era very well though and Berbick was the poster boy for everything that was wrong with the Heavyweight division. Quite possibly the only Heavyweight belt holder I have less regard for than Berbick is Carnera and that because practically Primo's entire career was a fraud (nothing against Carnera personally, from everything I understand he was a nice, if naive person who was unaware that he was participating in fixes).

Poet

[Kid McCoy]

While there's a question mark over a lot of his early fights, Carnera did have some fine, legitimate wins in his career, like Sharkey (I believe that was a legit KO), Loughran and Uzcudun. He won his title from a Hall of Famer, defended it against a Hall of Famer, and then lost it to a Hall of Famer, which isn't bad going. Nor does he really get much due for the great heart he showed against Baer, having broken his ankle early on. I'm not saying he was great, but he wasn't the circus act he's sometimes painted as either and deserves some credit for his career.

[TheGreatA]

While there's a question mark over a lot of his early fights, Carnera did have some fine, legitimate wins in his career, like Sharkey (I believe that was a legit KO), Loughran and Uzcudun. He won his title from a Hall of Famer, defended it against a Hall of Famer, and then lost it to a Hall of Famer, which isn't bad going. Nor does he really get much due for the great heart he showed against Baer, having broken his ankle early on. I'm not saying he was great, but he wasn't the circus act he's sometimes painted as either and deserves some credit for his career.

Carnera had some legit wins. I believe the early part of his career was "fixed" but mostly because the opponents he fought had no business being in the ring.

The Godfrey fight was su****ious but Godfrey was known for throwing low blows. He did seem to try to KO Carnera with some of the right hands he threw.

He was knocked out by Louis and Baer but he did better against them than most. Carnera had actually built a lead on the scorecards against Baer despite the knockdowns he suffered in the early rounds until another wild haymaker landed and further injured his already broken ankle.

Against Louis he survived 6 rounds, keeping Louis off of him with the jab but absorbing terrific punishment at times and especially at the end.

[BennyST]

Galento was in the top 10 for a long time during Louis era, and me personally,

Although I'll admit I don't know a whole lot about Galento.

Actually, as someone else mentioned, Galento was basically a smart publicist. Even then everyone knew he didn't have a hope in hell of beating Louis and it was really just a scam. Most knew about it though and Galento was the first one to jump on the ride. He never really did anything and it was about as much due to knowing people and being a smart manager that he was ranked highly.