Duran vs Toney

[LondonRingRules]

Duran was a bit uneven at times above lightweight, but when he showed up ready to fight, you could tell if he was on in the opening round, he was invincible just like his lightweight days.

The only fight he lost when he was on like that was against Hagler, but the absolute joy and ferocity he went against one of the all time greatest boxer/brawler/puncher combination in history was a spectacle to behold. That was deeper than Marv ever had to dig to keep from getting beat up.

Duran later did the same thing against a young, fitter, much healthier Barkley than what Toney beat, knocking poor Iran down and putting him on retreat for much of the fight. That fight was FOY, something Toney never earned.

Toney did not have an impressive run at 160, being completely outclassed before landing an admittedly great shot to KO Nunn, barely scraping some fortunate scoring that sees him with a draw and a majority decision over 40 yr old McCallum. Reggie Johnson knocks him down and only just dropped a split to Toney. Tiberi whipped him from stem to stern, inside and out to lose one of the most widely discussed robberies in boxing history.

Point being that Toney was was not showing any class over his comp at 160 where as Duran was.

Duran would see the lack of heart, the low fighting pace, the slowness afoot and hand and just tee off in the most joyful field day of his life at his best at 160.

Sure, Duran later dropped a close split to Hagler's brother, Robbie Sims, but Sims was a good fighter who probably got special training from Marv for the fight. Sims was more than capable of doing a Tiberi on Toney as well, but as mentioned, Duran even more capable of schooling Toney with speed and moves he'd never witnessed in the ring before.

Even in 97 well past his best, Duran put together a magnificient effort to avenge a loss to prime future HOF Jose Fernando Castro at 168. Toney was busy dropping a hometown decision against a foreign intruder, Drake Thradzi.

I daresay Roberto would be able to defeat Toney even then had the bout been arranged. It's a styles and personality clash thing. Duran would whip himself into tip top shape and bring his A-game against a pudgy trashtalker.

[Miburo]

Is this serious? I'm unaccustomed to seeing this kind of thread out of you, especially given the amount of effort put in.

[Terry A]

I daresay Roberto would be able to defeat Toney even then had the bout been arranged. It's a styles and personality clash thing. Duran would whip himself into tip top shape and bring his A-game against a pudgy trashtalker.

London,
Have to disagree. Asking Duran to whip Toney at 160 or above is just expecting too much from Roberto. By time he got to 160 and above, his skills AND desired had waned much.
The part about Duran getting himself into tip top shape....while you describe Toney as "pudgy"...confuses me. At what weight are we talking where Duran would be in tip top shape but Toney, weighing the same, would be "pudgy"?

Of these two great ring generals, I pick Duran as the P4P better of the two, and higher in the all time pecking order, but I can't see him outhustling Toney at 160 or thereabouts.

[LondonRingRules]

London,
Have to disagree. Asking Duran to whip Toney at 160 or above is just expecting too much from Roberto. By time he got to 160 and above, his skills AND desired had waned much.
The part about Duran getting himself into tip top shape....while you describe Toney as "pudgy"...confuses me. At what weight are we talking where Duran would be in tip top shape but Toney, weighing the same, would be "pudgy"?

Of these two great ring generals, I pick Duran as the P4P better of the two, and higher in the all time pecking order, but I can't see him outhustling Toney at 160 or thereabouts.

** Have you not seen the Hagler and Barkley fights?

Toney could never fight at that pace. He could barely keep up with 40 yr old Mccallum who was laid back in his prime. Tiberi only picked his pockets more than a hundred times with no payback.

Duran was in superior physical condition against Hagler and Barkley, easily on punch output pace with his best prime efforts.

Like I say gents, a slick, high paced, fast handed waterbug like Duran would present major problems because he fights as well outside as inside and he would keep Toney off balance from outside and unable to set up inside.

Now, I pointed out two fights that demonstrate the capacity of Duran to do what I claim. So far I hear some typical poopahs, "oh he can't do that," but no examples at 160 where Barkley shows any class over an opponent of Duran's caliber.

Why is that? What? You say no such footage exists because Toney never shows he can really outbox anyone at 160 or maintain a pace? According to compubox, which I don't trust, but at these low figures, moving up to face Barkley, his last 3 fight round punch average was 23 landed of 66 thrown against Dewitt, McCallum, and Stackhouse. These are on paper, vastly overmatched opponents.

Duran eats up lazy fighters and Toney was a lazy fighter at 160 no matter how you slice it.

[JAB5239]

** Have you not seen the Hagler and Barkley fights?

Toney could never fight at that pace. He could barely keep up with 40 yr old Mccallum who was laid back in his prime. Tiberi only picked his pockets more than a hundred times with no payback.

Duran was in superior physical condition against Hagler and Barkley, easily on punch output pace with his best prime efforts.

Like I say gents, a slick, high paced, fast handed waterbug like Duran would present major problems because he fights as well outside as inside and he would keep Toney off balance from outside and unable to set up inside.

Now, I pointed out two fights that demonstrate the capacity of Duran to do what I claim. So far I hear some typical poopahs, "oh he can't do that," but no examples at 160 where Barkley shows any class over an opponent of Duran's caliber.

Why is that? What? You say no such footage exists because Toney never shows he can really outbox anyone at 160 or maintain a pace? According to compubox, which I don't trust, but at these low figures, moving up to face Barkley, his last 3 fight round punch average was 23 landed of 66 thrown against Dewitt, McCallum, and Stackhouse. These are on paper, vastly overmatched opponents.

Duran eats up lazy fighters and Toney was a lazy fighter at 160 no matter how you slice it.

I thin LRR is making a strong case on this one.

[them_apples]

** Have you not seen the Hagler and Barkley fights?

Toney could never fight at that pace. He could barely keep up with 40 yr old Mccallum who was laid back in his prime. Tiberi only picked his pockets more than a hundred times with no payback.

Duran was in superior physical condition against Hagler and Barkley, easily on punch output pace with his best prime efforts.

Like I say gents, a slick, high paced, fast handed waterbug like Duran would present major problems because he fights as well outside as inside and he would keep Toney off balance from outside and unable to set up inside.

Now, I pointed out two fights that demonstrate the capacity of Duran to do what I claim. So far I hear some typical poopahs, "oh he can't do that," but no examples at 160 where Barkley shows any class over an opponent of Duran's caliber.

Why is that? What? You say no such footage exists because Toney never shows he can really outbox anyone at 160 or maintain a pace? According to compubox, which I don't trust, but at these low figures, moving up to face Barkley, his last 3 fight round punch average was 23 landed of 66 thrown against Dewitt, McCallum, and Stackhouse. These are on paper, vastly overmatched opponents.

Duran eats up lazy fighters and Toney was a lazy fighter at 160 no matter how you slice it.

yea you do have a point, but Tony is also much taller than Duran. I think with his Philly shell style it could cause some serious problems.

Barkley is also taller than Duran I know, but he isn't half the fighter Tony was.

I can't see Duran not running into Tony's bombs. I shouldn't put aside Duran though, he did give Hagler hell. What a beast, the guys a freaking lightweight.

[Miburo]

Duran barely scratched a controversial decision from Barkley. Barkley was being dominated by Hearns too, only his power saved him. Toney dominated Barkley. At that late stage of Duran's career Toney would have been unequivocally the more skilled, bigger, fresher fighter. Certainly claiming a late 90s version of Duran had a chance against Toney is ludicrous, even taking into account some of his poor performances during those "lost" years. I wouldn't even give much of a chance to the Duran who fought Hagler, as Hagler fought extremely conservatively, wasn't a large middleweight in any case, and Toney and Hagler are not even remotely stylistically similar.

[KostyaTszyu44]

lol, Toney kills Duran at 160

[LondonRingRules]

Duran barely scratched a controversial decision from Barkley. Barkley was being dominated by Hearns too, only his power saved him. Toney dominated Barkley. At that late stage of Duran's career Toney would have been unequivocally the more skilled, bigger, fresher fighter. Certainly claiming a late 90s version of Duran had a chance against Toney is ludicrous, even taking into account some of his poor performances during thos "lost" years. I wouldn't even give much of a chance to the Duran who fought Hagler, as Hagler fought extremely conservatively, wasn't a large middleweight in any case, and Toney and Hagler are not even remotely stylistically similar.

** Skilled? Where on these green acres can you find someone who can do more in the ring than Duran?

You're comparing a classical legend to some cheesy modern wannabe great who not only failed to show any consistency in his career, but ate his way out of every division he qualified for.

Now, I've asked for examples where Toney shows his overall class over a prime or near prime quality champ. They don't have to be a HOFer, but lets keep in mind how you damn Toney by using the nature of Barkley to dismiss him when he knocks out Hearns in 3 rds. You don't dominate fights by winning two rounds of a 3 rd fight my friend.

Keep in mind that Nunn was able to dominate Toney for 10 of the 11 rds they fought, so, by your logic, Toney is to be dismissed as easily as Barkley for just having power save him in a fight Toney was being more thoroughly dominated.

Barkley was greatly diminished by the time he fought Toney, coming off 2 detached retina surgeries and having to spend 24 hrs in the gym melting his frame down to the 168 lb limit. His next fight was at 208 which he wins by KO, and his weight is all over the map after this fight as he falls into further decline.

As I pointed out, Duran was able to not only beat a fresher Barkley into retreat or stand off for most of the fight, but he knocks Barkely down. Compare to Barkley bulling Toney around the ring in spite of being handicapped by a right eye shut down by the 2nd round. No KD by Toney, he never really even shakes Barkley up. The ring doc stopped Barkley, a legit win, but is this the best you got?

Take the challenge. Examples, por favor. Why are you chaps unable to provide examples of genuine class for Toney? I gave 3 examples of Duran, and I dare say against a lazy champ like Toney, healthy Duran could win 2 of three in spite of having more milelage on him than JT currently has.

Gonna have a spot of fun with JT. I apologize in advance for having so much fun with him. It's a congenital weakness with me, but oh, so much fun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hehpt...eature=related James Toney before Burger King....and After!

[KostyaTszyu44]

** Skilled? Where on these green acres can you find someone who can do more in the ring than Duran?

You're comparing a classical legend to some cheesy modern wannabe great who not only failed to show any consistency in his career, but ate his way out of every division he qualified for.

Now, I've asked for examples where Toney shows his overall class over a prime or near prime quality champ. They don't have to be a HOFer, but lets keep in mind how you damn Toney by using the nature of Barkley to dismiss him when he knocks out Hearns in 3 rds. You don't dominate fights by winning two rounds of a 3 rd fight my friend.

Keep in mind that Nunn was able to dominate Toney for 10 of the 11 rds they fought, so, by your logic, Toney is to be dismissed as easily as Barkley for just having power save him in a fight Toney was being more thoroughly dominated.

Barkley was greatly diminished by the time he fought Toney, coming off 2 detached retina surgeries and having to spend 24 hrs in the gym melting his frame down to the 168 lb limit. His next fight was at 208 which he wins by KO, and his weight is all over the map after this fight as he falls into further decline.

As I pointed out, Duran was able to not only beat a fresher Barkley into retreat or stand off for most of the fight, but he knocks Barkely down. Compare to Barkley bulling Toney around the ring in spite of being handicapped by a right eye shut down by the 2nd round. No KD by Toney, he never really even shakes Barkley up. The ring doc stopped Barkley, a legit win, but is this the best you got?

Take the challenge. Examples, por favor. Why are you chaps unable to provide examples of genuine class for Toney? I gave 3 examples of Duran, and I dare say against a lazy champ like Toney, healthy Duran could win 2 of three in spite of having more milelage on him than JT currently has.

Gonna have a spot of fun with JT. I apologize in advance for having so much fun with him. It's a congenital weakness with me, but oh, so much fun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hehpt...eature=related James Toney before Burger King....and After!

how? toney stalked nunn the whole fight and did a great job of not getting hit cleanly and waiting for the right time

your points about toney dont make sense, in another post you said toney was slow of hand and foot, james had excellent handspeed, and s still reasonably quick for someone his age and size