Duran vs Toney

[Testdead]

The Duran that fought Hagler at 160 would give toney a good fight no doubt.

But peak Toney (not the shell that lost to Jones) would win.

[Miburo]

** Skilled? Where on these green acres can you find someone who can do more in the ring than Duran?

Yes, I would say Toney was more skilled, in the strict definition, than Duran, and as I noted especially a Duran out of his prime. What made Duran great wasn't truly his technical skill, it was his intensity and brawling instinct which, in combination with that learned skill, put him over the top. It's rare for someone with that sort of style to be able to successfully temper it with technique to transcend the usual limits and weaknesses. No offense, but you seem to have a strong bias against Toney.

[wmute]

Duran was a bit uneven at times above lightweight, but when he showed up ready to fight, you could tell if he was on in the opening round, he was invincible just like his lightweight days.

The only fight he lost when he was on like that was against Hagler, but the absolute joy and ferocity he went against one of the all time greatest boxer/brawler/puncher combination in history was a spectacle to behold. That was deeper than Marv ever had to dig to keep from getting beat up.

Duran later did the same thing against a young, fitter, much healthier Barkley than what Toney beat, knocking poor Iran down and putting him on retreat for much of the fight. That fight was FOY, something Toney never earned.

Toney did not have an impressive run at 160, being completely outclassed before landing an admittedly great shot to KO Nunn, barely scraping some fortunate scoring that sees him with a draw and a majority decision over 40 yr old McCallum. Reggie Johnson knocks him down and only just dropped a split to Toney. Tiberi whipped him from stem to stern, inside and out to lose one of the most widely discussed robberies in boxing history.

Point being that Toney was was not showing any class over his comp at 160 where as Duran was.

Duran would see the lack of heart, the low fighting pace, the slowness afoot and hand and just tee off in the most joyful field day of his life at his best at 160.

Sure, Duran later dropped a close split to Hagler's brother, Robbie Sims, but Sims was a good fighter who probably got special training from Marv for the fight. Sims was more than capable of doing a Tiberi on Toney as well, but as mentioned, Duran even more capable of schooling Toney with speed and moves he'd never witnessed in the ring before.

Even in 97 well past his best, Duran put together a magnificient effort to avenge a loss to prime future HOF Jose Fernando Castro at 168. Toney was busy dropping a hometown decision against a foreign intruder, Drake Thradzi.

I daresay Roberto would be able to defeat Toney even then had the bout been arranged. It's a styles and personality clash thing. Duran would whip himself into tip top shape and bring his A-game against a pudgy trashtalker.

LRR, I find the whole bold part is unbelievably biased. I am sure I am not the only one.

completely outclassed??? it is called breaking down people, and you know it.

Only one of the 2 mccallum had a debatable outcome (we know the draw should not have been one). And I don't remember anyone complaining about the scoring of Toney-Johnson. (might be wrong though).

Tiberi was a robbery (agreed), in fact I did not bold it.

The Toney and McCallum that fought their first fight could have kept the pace of anyone in a 12 round MW fight.

Sometimes I wonder, do you actually think everything you write? or do you occasionally like to stir a little bit of ****?

Coming to the question at hand. No way. Toney is too tough and naturally slick, and Duran would not be content with dancing around him and pot shotting him.

I rate Duran very high, but an old 160 version of him is not handling Toney.

[LondonRingRules]

LRR, I find the whole bold part is unbelievably biased. I am sure I am not the only one.

completely outclassed??? it is called breaking down people, and you know it.

Only one of the 2 mccallum had a debatable outcome (we know the draw should not have been one). And I don't remember anyone complaining about the scoring of Toney-Johnson. (might be wrong though).

Tiberi was a robbery (agreed), in fact I did not bold it.

The Toney and McCallum that fought their first fight could have kept the pace of anyone in a 12 round MW fight.

Sometimes I wonder, do you actually think everything you write? or do you occasionally like to stir a little bit of ****?

Coming to the question at hand. No way. Toney is too tough and naturally slick, and Duran would not be content with dancing around him and pot shotting him.

I rate Duran very high, but an old 160 version of him is not handling Toney.

** Look, I don't deny that Toney had skills, but let's face facts here, he was an alphabet champ at the start of the new 4 ABC org era who was gifted with quite of few close and disputed calls early on. The skill level advantage attributed to him is simply not evident against prime top operators.

And, no, he did not "break Nunn down." He barely landed any punches on Nunn until the last two rounds. What he did was put pressure on Nunn's own lack of committment to training which sees him running out of gas which exposes his seldom tested jaw. It's the best prime "name" victory save perhaps the Jirov win that Toney has, but he was shipped plenty of punishment in those bouts, certainly more than he returned to Nunn and at least near par with Jirov.

In otherwords, it was his rock chin that won him those bouts which is fine, but give it up on all these old school superiority claims. Jirov's supporters don't brag about his limited defense. Toney's a good, tough, decently skilled fighter limited by his conditioning and mental laziness that sees him up and down in an uneven career.

Now I'm not frothing over anyone picking Toney over Duran. I'm pleased as punch to be able to contrast a very underrated lost in the wilderness phase of Duran in what should have been the winter of his career. I've studied the attributes he still had, and at 160 he seems to have recovered his fire and zest because he no longer had to worry about weight and could concentrate on conditioning and fighting.

I'd like to see the Sims fight to make a further evaluation. I've seen the Leonard fight and feel he was jobbed on the scoring as all Leonard did was spoil. Duran should've been in better running shape for the bout and could've done more, but maybe Leonard had exposed his weakness of not wanting to hunt down elusive fighters late in his career, so I won't really argue with the decision, just the nature of the scoring.

In which case Leonard would also outpoint Toney by a wider UD since Toney is slower afoot as would Hearns.

All I've ever asked of Toney supporters is proof of his wide class over a decent prime opponent, and the best they can come up with is a clearly past it Barkley?

C'mon fellas, Duran has an excuse of being well out of his weight class approaching 90 fights of a storied career. Toney is supposed to be in his prime. Why the draws, splits, majorities and blatant robbery?

Where's the beef boys? Is it all Burger King with Toney?

[BennyST]

not only failed to show any consistency in his career, but ate his way out of every division he qualified for.

Man, there is just no way Toney gets beat by Duran at the stage Duran was as a MW. If we're talking P4P then I absolutely agree. I think Duran would give Toney hell, but not a literal fight between the young MW Toney and the old, out of shape Duran at MW.

Just curious though? After his lone loss at WW, Duran showed great inconsistency and also ate himself out of WW, JMW and then MW as well. You could be talking about Duran above. It's just lucky that he accomplished so much more before and after as that inconsistent, small, old man.

Really, that whole lack of heart thing is crazy as well. Toney had a lot of heart. Infact I'm surprised you don't enjoy Toney a lot more if you enjoy Duran. They actually had a lot of similarities. Toney's defensive skill is actually quite reminiscent of Duran's.

Anyway, check out the last round of Toney/Jirov, Toney/Littles, etc for a real show of heart.

[BennyST]

limited by his conditioning and mental laziness that sees him up and down in an uneven career.

Come now man, wasn't it Duran that lost to Leonard because of his lack of conditioning and his lax attitude to training in between partying and eating too much? Can you imagine if Duran had Hopkins level of discipline? He could have ravaged the WW, JMW, and MW division for years to come and rarely ever lost a fight. He could have also stayed at LW for even longer and fought through JWW as well.

It was this same laziness and lack of discipline that lost Duran his fights after his peak years. He had the skill, tenacity and experience to beat just about any fighter he ever faced, but he lost because of ****ty training habits and getting way too out of shape. The same thing you're accusing Toney of.

[KostyaTszyu44]

** Look, I don't deny that Toney had skills, but let's face facts here, he was an alphabet champ at the start of the new 4 ABC org era who was gifted with quite of few close and disputed calls early on. The skill level advantage attributed to him is simply not evident against prime top operators.

And, no, he did not "break Nunn down." He barely landed any punches on Nunn until the last two rounds. What he did was put pressure on Nunn's own lack of committment to training which sees him running out of gas which exposes his seldom tested jaw. It's the best prime "name" victory save perhaps the Jirov win that Toney has, but he was shipped plenty of punishment in those bouts, certainly more than he returned to Nunn and at least near par with Jirov.

In otherwords, it was his rock chin that won him those bouts which is fine, but give it up on all these old school superiority claims. Jirov's supporters don't brag about his limited defense. Toney's a good, tough, decently skilled fighter limited by his conditioning and mental laziness that sees him up and down in an uneven career.

Now I'm not frothing over anyone picking Toney over Duran. I'm pleased as punch to be able to contrast a very underrated lost in the wilderness phase of Duran in what should have been the winter of his career. I've studied the attributes he still had, and at 160 he seems to have recovered his fire and zest because he no longer had to worry about weight and could concentrate on conditioning and fighting.

I'd like to see the Sims fight to make a further evaluation. I've seen the Leonard fight and feel he was jobbed on the scoring as all Leonard did was spoil. Duran should've been in better running shape for the bout and could've done more, but maybe Leonard had exposed his weakness of not wanting to hunt down elusive fighters late in his career, so I won't really argue with the decision, just the nature of the scoring.

In which case Leonard would also outpoint Toney by a wider UD since Toney is slower afoot as would Hearns.

All I've ever asked of Toney supporters is proof of his wide class over a decent prime opponent, and the best they can come up with is a clearly past it Barkley?

C'mon fellas, Duran has an excuse of being well out of his weight class approaching 90 fights of a storied career. Toney is supposed to be in his prime. Why the draws, splits, majorities and blatant robbery?

Where's the beef boys? Is it all Burger King with Toney?

im pretty sure toney was the lineal MW champ after he defeated nunn

[LondonRingRules]

Come now man, wasn't it Duran that lost to Leonard because of his lack of conditioning and his lax attitude to training in between partying and eating too much? Can you imagine if Duran had Hopkins level of discipline? He could have ravaged the WW, JMW, and MW division for years to come and rarely ever lost a fight. He could have also stayed at LW for even longer and fought through JWW as well.

It was this same laziness and lack of discipline that lost Duran his fights after his peak years. He had the skill, tenacity and experience to beat just about any fighter he ever faced, but he lost because of ****ty training habits and getting way too out of shape. The same thing you're accusing Toney of.

** My sweet Benny, Duran was a HOF legend with 70+ wins under his belt when his eating disorder booted him out of the welt division.

In fact, his disorder is so bad that he's actually bigger than is Toney right now, HUMONGOUS in fact.

As a fighter, Duran held it together much better than Toney who only now has as many wins at age 40 as Duran had at 29. Your comparing a mule to a thoroughbred here Benny.

What I am saying that the talent, ability, and savagery shown by Duran at the 160 level against high caliber opposition makes him a good bet against the lazy, uneven, and poor performance of Toney at 160. If Tiberi could do it to Toney, Duran could do it in spades and go for a late KO to boot since Toney won't fight him as much as Barkley did.

As to Toney's middle lineal claim, well, Zsolt Erdei is the "lineal" LH champ, so not sure what that poster's point is, but we could make it for many fighters, like say Neon Leon.

Still waiting lads for that seminal Toney prime opponent where he pitches a master class, showing all the skills attributed to him. There seems to be a reluctance of Toney supporters to shake loose with at least a single name, and please, don't mention a well past it Barkley again.

[KostyaTszyu44]

** My sweet Benny, Duran was a HOF legend with 70+ wins under his belt when his eating disorder booted him out of the welt division.

In fact, his disorder is so bad that he's actually bigger than is Toney right now, HUMONGOUS in fact.

As a fighter, Duran held it together much better than Toney who only now has as many wins at age 40 as Duran had at 29. Your comparing a mule to a thoroughbred here Benny.

What I am saying that the talent, ability, and savagery shown by Duran at the 160 level against high caliber opposition makes him a good bet against the lazy, uneven, and poor performance of Toney at 160. If Tiberi could do it to Toney, Duran could do it in spades and go for a late KO to boot since Toney won't fight him as much as Barkley did.

As to Toney's middle lineal claim, well, Zsolt Erdei is the "lineal" LH champ, so not sure what that poster's point is, but we could make it for many fighters, like say Neon Leon.

Still waiting lads for that seminal Toney prime opponent where he pitches a master class, showing all the skills attributed to him. There seems to be a reluctance of Toney supporters to shake loose with at least a single name, and please, don't mention a well past it Barkley again.

yes but toney beat a prime, elite, undefeated, p4p rated fighter in nunn to win it, that means a hell of a lot

you obviously have a bias against toney so i wont bother anymore

[Southpaw16BF]

** My sweet Benny, Duran was a HOF legend with 70+ wins under his belt when his eating disorder booted him out of the welt division.

In fact, his disorder is so bad that he's actually bigger than is Toney right now, HUMONGOUS in fact.

As a fighter, Duran held it together much better than Toney who only now has as many wins at age 40 as Duran had at 29. Your comparing a mule to a thoroughbred here Benny.

What I am saying that the talent, ability, and savagery shown by Duran at the 160 level against high caliber opposition makes him a good bet against the lazy, uneven, and poor performance of Toney at 160. If Tiberi could do it to Toney, Duran could do it in spades and go for a late KO to boot since Toney won't fight him as much as Barkley did.

As to Toney's middle lineal claim, well, Zsolt Erdei is the "lineal" LH champ, so not sure what that poster's point is, but we could make it for many fighters, like say Neon Leon.

Still waiting lads for that seminal Toney prime opponent where he pitches a master class, showing all the skills attributed to him. There seems to be a reluctance of Toney supporters to shake loose with at least a single name, and please, don't mention a well past it Barkley again.

You make good points here, but one point that caught my eye was, ''Still waiting lads for that seminal Toney prime opponent where he pitches a master class, showing all the skills attributed to him''

You say Toney never beat a ''Prime'' fighter. His win over Michael Nunn is a win over a prime fighter as your going to get.

Going into the fight Nunn had a 33-0 record, was current World Champion(IBF), had made 5 defences of his title. Had beaten Sumbu Kalambay,Iran Barkley,Donald Curry all world class fighters. He'd beat good contenders in Marlon Starling,Frank Tate, and Juan Domingo Roldan. And was a elite pound for pound fighter.

Toney tko's him in 11 rounds, in what a heated battle start to finish. That in my mind is a win over a ''Prime'' fighter, and it may not have been a masterclass, but it was a great win and he done it inside the distance.And he did show Heart, Toughness, Skill, and good finishing in this fight.

And Toney also has another win over a ''Prime'' fighter. The date was April 26 2003 were James Toney would produce some vintage stuff as he would defeat undefeated number #1 Cruiserweight Vassiliy Jirov. Going into this Jirov was 31-0 and was being really touted as something special , he was ruler of his weight division and had made 3 defences of his IBF title.

James comes out of this with a UD victory in what was a true up and down thriller. It was no masterclass, but a win over a world class fighter, who gave it his all. That fight i find took something deep inside out of Jirov and he was never the same. And again Toney showed lots of nice ''Vintage Old School'' moves in this epic battle, and showed toughness and lots of heart.

So you may not be the biggest Toney supporter in the world, and as i said you make some good points in your article's. But James Toney did beat fighters in their prime, and its pretty hard to take that away from him, but at the end of the day everyone is entitled to there own thoughts and views.