Who Can Handle Vitali in the Historical Pantheon?

[JAB5239]

Try doing as I asked and proving that Lennox was not his best when he fought Vitali. That's right you can't because it CANNOT be proven because it's opinion depending on who you ask at any givin' time.

I would respectfully argue Lennox wasn't at his best for that fight. After 15 years and 44 fights as a pro, almost 38 years old and coming in at the heaviest weight he ever fought its hard to imagine that was the best version of Lewis. The last time he came in over the 250 mark he was knocked out by Rahman. He was also sucking wind by the 4th round. It may be opinion, but I believe my opinion has merit.

[1SILVA]

I would respectfully argue Lennox wasn't at his best for that fight. After 15 years and 44 fights as a pro, almost 38 years old and coming in at the heaviest weight he ever fought its hard to imagine that was the best version of Lewis. The last time he came in over the 250 mark he was knocked out by Rahman. He was also sucking wind by the 4th round. It may be opinion, but I believe my opinion has merit.

Great point. Remember also that Lennox was supposed to fight Kirk Johnson and Klitschko was his replacement. Lennox trained to fight Johnson, and in fact had taken Johnson so seriously that he seemed not to have skipped any meals. I believe his performance in this fight convinced Lennox that he was no longer a top flight fighter, hence his decision to retire. He also had lost the hunger to fight again. The lennox that destroyed Rahman and Ruddock would defeat Klitschco

[BattlingNelson]

Great point. Remember also that Lennox was supposed to fight Kirk Johnson and Klitschko was his replacement. Lennox trained to fight Johnson, and in fact had taken Johnson so seriously that he seemed not to have skipped any meals. I believe his performance in this fight convinced Lennox that he was no longer a top flight fighter, hence his decision to retire. He also had lost the hunger to fight again. The lennox that destroyed Rahman and Ruddock would defeat Klitschco

What's your take on Vitali's preperations then? He was a late replacement and wasn't in training for a worldchampionship fight as Lewis was. Do you think he was prepared?

[LondonRingRules]

I would respectfully argue Lennox wasn't at his best for that fight. After 15 years and 44 fights as a pro, almost 38 years old and coming in at the heaviest weight he ever fought its hard to imagine that was the best version of Lewis. The last time he came in over the 250 mark he was knocked out by Rahman. He was also sucking wind by the 4th round. It may be opinion, but I believe my opinion has merit.

** Here's the flaw in that thinking: The last time Lewis fought in the 230s, 238 against McCall, he was KOed.

Are we to discount the dozen or so fights in the 230 and claim he was just lucky to win being so out of shape like is claimed against Vitali?

He was 250 for Botha, and 249 against Tua two fights before coming in at 254 against Rahman. Need I remind anyone that with a fighter this size, he could break wind and lose 4 lbs? Moreover, heavies often don't bother to weigh stripped down so weights are not always accurate.

Lewis incrementally increases his fight weight over time like just about every heavy who's ever lived, indeed, most fighters who've ever lived. Because of the Klitchko's accension along with Byrd and Ruiz, Lewis saw a series of very tough fights late in his career, so why bother? He was always a bit lazy in the ring, always seemingly doing just enough to confer points advantage unless someone pressed him and made him slug it out.

It's a fact he had a minimum 8 week training camp. Early against Vitali, Lewis is waving in the wind on weak legs. Stamina had very little to do with it. Lewis, and everyone who ever stepped in against Vitali as it turns out, struggles with his timing and his style. Should this be a surprise anymore?

Maybe it wasn't the best Lewis, but I don't see how it could be the worst Lewis when he showed enough guts and stamina to get back into the fight after being barely able to sit on his stool without falling over. Couldn't have done that without being in at least decent shape with a good camp.

Maybe Lewis did indeed approach "the wall" where a fighter doesn't have it any more like Popkins against SuperJoe, but look at Poppy's masterclass against Pavlik? Was everyone claiming Poppy was overweight from his prime and in poor shape against Joe?

No, of course not, he's American and walks on water according to supporters.

[Chase8400]

** Here's the flaw in that thinking: The last time Lewis fought in the 230s, 238 against McCall, he was KOed.

Are we to discount the dozen or so fights in the 230 and claim he was just lucky to win being so out of shape like is claimed against Vitali?

He was 250 for Botha, and 249 against Tua two fights before coming in at 254 against Rahman. Need I remind anyone that with a fighter this size, he could break wind and lose 4 lbs? Moreover, heavies often don't bother to weigh stripped down so weights are not always accurate.

Lewis incrementally increases his fight weight over time like just about every heavy who's ever lived, indeed, most fighters who've ever lived. Because of the Klitchko's accension along with Byrd and Ruiz, Lewis saw a series of very tough fights late in his career, so why bother? He was always a bit lazy in the ring, always seemingly doing just enough to confer points advantage unless someone pressed him and made him slug it out.

It's a fact he had a minimum 8 week training camp. Early against Vitali, Lewis is waving in the wind on weak legs. Stamina had very little to do with it. Lewis, and everyone who ever stepped in against Vitali as it turns out, struggles with his timing and his style. Should this be a surprise anymore?

Maybe it wasn't the best Lewis, but I don't see how it could be the worst Lewis when he showed enough guts and stamina to get back into the fight after being barely able to sit on his stool without falling over. Couldn't have done that without being in at least decent shape with a good camp.

Maybe Lewis did indeed approach "the wall" where a fighter doesn't have it any more like Popkins against SuperJoe, but look at Poppy's masterclass against Pavlik? Was everyone claiming Poppy was overweight from his prime and in poor shape against Joe?

No, of course not, he's American and walks on water according to supporters.

Outstanding post. Right on point.

What the people who claim that Lennox was obviously faded when he faced Vitali don't seem to comprehend is that it was obvious by looking at the fight that he was still throwing punches just fine and was looking as sharp as ever. How could he not be to open up those cuts on VK's face? There's always a way to discredit the Klitschko's and it seems like it's a neccesity on here anytime they are brought up.

I gotta believe that if both men came in that fight fully prepared , ready to face one another, Vitali would have won the fight. I have to admitt he lost due to cuts, but that doesn't change the fact that he was winning the fight at the time of stoppage and the fans present were almost all for Vitali at the conclusion, etc.... The fans and respect Vitali earned are what told the real story.

[StarshipTrooper]

Outstanding post. Right on point.

Ah! I see your taking time out of your busy schedual of sucking-off the Klitschkos to perform a like service on LRR: Easily the biggest idiot on Boxing Scene.

What the people who claim that Lennox was obviously faded when he faced Vitali don't seem to comprehend is that it was obvious by looking at the fight that he was still throwing punches just fine and was looking as sharp as ever.

Maybe to someone who doesn't know what he's seeing and watches boxing through the eyes of a fan-boi.

How could he not be to open up those cuts on VK's face?

Hmmm. Maybe because Vitali is bleeder in the mold of Jerry Quarry?

There's always a way to discredit the Klitschko's and it seems like it's a neccesity on here anytime they are brought up.

In the case of Wlad there's no need as he's already discredited himself (Ross Purrity anyone?)

I gotta believe that if both men came in that fight fully prepared , ready to face one another, Vitali would have won the fight.

Ah yes! Substituting "belief" for knowledge again! Mayhap the angels will also reveal to you how many Klitschko's may prance on the head of a pin.

I have to admitt he lost due to cuts, but that doesn't change the fact that he was winning the fight at the time of stoppage and the fans present were almost all for Vitali at the conclusion, etc.... The fans and respect Vitali earned are what told the real story.

Oh yes, being up 4 round to 2 and having lost the last 2 rounds is a GREAT indicator that Vitali was going to dominate the second half of the fight. Must be more of that "faith" you have in abundance: Too bad you've chosen to believe in things rather knowing things.

Poet

[BattlingNelson]

Ah! I see your taking time out of your busy schedual of sucking-off the Klitschkos to perform a like service on LRR: Easily the biggest idiot on Boxing Scene.



Maybe to someone who doesn't know what he's seeing and watches boxing through the eyes of a fan-boi.



Hmmm. Maybe because Vitali is bleeder in the mold of Jerry Quarry?



In the case of Wlad there's no need as he's already discredited himself (Ross Purrity anyone?)



Ah yes! Substituting "belief" for knowledge again! Mayhap the angels will also reveal to you how many Klitschko's may prance on the head of a pin.



Oh yes, being up 4 round to 2 and having lost the last 2 rounds is a GREAT indicator that Vitali was going to dominate the second half of the fight. Must be more of that "faith" you have in abundance: Too bad you've chosen to believe in things rather knowing things.

Poet

The fact that Lewis didn't give Vitali the rematch he had promised speaks volumes to me. Compare Lewis to Louis for a moment, Louis, as you know, set the Walcott matter straight in the second meeting. Lewis chose the retirement option likely to protect himself. If Lewis himself felt that he was out of shape for the Vitali fight then why not give the guy a rematch? Prepare properly and then whoop his ass?

[StarshipTrooper]

The fact that Lewis didn't give Vitali the rematch he had promised speaks volumes to me. Compare Lewis to Louis for a moment, Louis, as you know, set the Walcott matter straight in the second meeting. Lewis chose the retirement option likely to protect himself. If Lewis himself felt that he was out of shape for the Vitali fight then why not give the guy a rematch? Prepare properly and then whoop his ass?

I would say it was more a case of Lewis, at 38 and a millionare, couldn't be arsed to put that kind of effort in anymore. Lewis was never passionate about the fight game and really could care less legacy wise if he left any loose ends hanging. He was never the type to fight on because he just couldn't let go like so many others have been. I also doubt that Lennox thought he had anything left to prove. While serious fight fans may argue differently Lennox rarely if ever let those types of arguments enter into his considerations.

Poet

[BattlingNelson]

I would say it was more a case of Lewis, at 38 and a millionare, couldn't be arsed to put that kind of effort in anymore. Lewis was never passionate about the fight game and really could care less legacy wise if he left any loose ends hanging. He was never the type to fight on because he just couldn't let go like so many others have been. I also doubt that Lennox thought he had anything left to prove. While serious fight fans may argue differently Lennox rarely if ever let those types of arguments enter into his considerations.

Poet

I respect Lewis for having those opinions for sure. And I agree that it was also a parameter in his decisionmaking. Still it hurts his legacy to leave the game with a big unanswered question like that. Personally I don't think Lewis at 35+ could beat Vitali sans cuts. To me he got lucky.

[StarshipTrooper]

I respect Lewis for having those opinions for sure. And I agree that it was also a parameter in his decisionmaking. Still it hurts his legacy to leave the game with a big unanswered question like that. Personally I don't think Lewis at 35+ could beat Vitali sans cuts. To me he got lucky.

I agree it hurts his legacy and I would have liked Lennox to have had more of Joe Louis' pride in his legacy. Unanswered questions never seemed to have unduly troubled Lennox though.

In his fight against Vitali Lennox essentially gave away the first four rounds. He won the last two, however, and it certainly seemed to me he had turned the fight at that point so I don't think it follows that he had to have the cut to win. There were six more rounds to go so Vitali didn't have an insurmountable lead and Lennox was inflicting enough damage that a late stoppage in Lewis' favor was a very real possibility.

Poet