Who Can Handle Vitali in the Historical Pantheon?

[portuge puncher]

foreman would knock em' out IMO,

Ali would win a desicion,

and tyson might just kill em.

[BattlingNelson]

as much as lewis looked out of shape in that fight, in the last round, Vitali looked even more gassed and wasted than Lewis.

Who knows what would have happened had the fight not been stopped(IMO would have been one of the best hw fights of all-time) but it sure looked like Vitali was not too far off from being dropped by Lewis.

No question Vitali felt the pace as well. He took some massive uppercuts in the last round if I remember correctly. I just think that Lennox looked more wasted. Whatever. It's a damn shame when cuts is the deciding factor.

[LondonRingRules]

The bolded are who I think would have beaten Vitali in their primes.
Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Larry Holmes-
James J. Jeffries
George Foreman-
Sonny Liston -
Joe Frazier -
Gene Tunney
Lennox Lewis-
Mike Tyson -
Evander Holyfield-
Sam Langford
Jersey Joe Walcott
Ezzard Charles
Harry Wills
James J. Corbett
Bob Fitzsimmons

** Don't really matter what you think. What can you support?

First off, Louis with a history of beating big tall men with no defeats to them, but also Dempsey, so 1 of 2 ain't bad.

Only big tall fighter Ali ever beat is Terrell and Foreman, both dwarfed by the Klitschkos who are massively stronger and more powerful than Terrell and who can box much better with similar levels of power to Foreman. Ali very uneven in his performance even at his so called prime. Best, a good pick. Worst, forget about it. No gifts in this analysis like he got in his stinkemup fights.

Holmes was outboxed by Cooney who's form and stamina fell apart in later rounds and finally folded without a punch landing on him. Cooney never beat a prime contender, an inferior version of the K bros. None of Holmes' competition would remotely bother the brothers as Holmes defended against weak setups mostly. Easy fare for the brothers.

Foremen, Liston, and Frazier present problems, but the one off physical phenom Liston will fold mentally fairly early, like on the intros, so I give George and Joe a chance, but prime versions of each have no history of beating big guys. Frazier did beat undefeated Mathis, but he was a pure boxer not trained for power or using his size and strength. Be some great fights there but the brothers probably too accurate for Joe and it's a matter of if George can adjust to them boxing him off the back foot and then moving in for their power shots. Knowing George it's gonna end up a pier 6 donnybrook for the ages, and he won all those types of matches, but the brothers bigger and stronger than the little guys he over powered.

Only big guy UnHoly beat was Baby Huey Bowe, a mental midget and Bowe only beat when he started doing all his training in the kitcheon.

So, that leaves Tyson and Lewis, both having chances, Tyson in particular with his prime style and team intact, the best chances of the lot. Lewis is as vulnerable against Wlad as vice versa. Vitali showed he could handle Lewis style on short notice and was a much better fighter after their bout. I'd favor Vitali as that cutthe worst in heavy title history, a fluke.

Two fighters I give outside shots is Tunney and Charles, two quick, smallish guys capable of boxing and moving. Probably they get beat, but with Wlad's here today, gone tomorrow stamina snafus, we don't know if he might pull another Cooney. I doubt it, but there is some history.

[DeepSleep]

I cant speak for some of the older boxers as I haven't seen enough of them to make an educated guess as to what would happen but as for the rest of the heavyweight champs I think there are a few who could beat Vitali.

Prime Ali - Ali's movement would stifle Vitali who isn't the most fleet of foot. Ali would zoom in and out and peg Vitali who would not have the hand or foot speed to catch him.

Holmes - Vitali could use his massive frame to throw 1-2's at Holmes who couldn't use his jab as effectively as he normally does. Holmes has a tendency to keep his hands low which he can get away with against most people because his jab could keep people away from him and he could dictate the action but against Vitali he would not be able to due this.

Foreman - Foreman forces Vitali into a war. This could swing either way as Foreman could knock Vitali out just as easily as Viltai could knock Foreman out.

Frazier - Although he would give Vit a good run for his money I think he would eat too many 1-2's on his way in and get rocked and finished.
I also think he would have trouble landing his left hook on Vit when he finnaly gets inside since Vitali is so tall.

Lennox Lewis - In his Prime I think Lennox could outbox Vitali, he is faster and has a longer reach than Vitali. If Vitali lands a bomb though he could KO Lennox.

Tyson - He would swarm all over Vitali early but he wouldn't be able to KO Vitali and would end up losing his composure and getting tagged.

Holyfield - Puncher's chance as I don't think Vitali could knockout Evander but I'd gamble Vitali would win by wide decision as Holyfield would have trouble with Vitali's jab.

One of the problems with Vitali is that he hasn't had anyone good enough to push him hard. He has such an easy time with the competition he is given that it is tough to predict how he would look against another talented fighter.

[BattlingNelson]

** Don't really matter what you think. What can you support?

First off, Louis with a history of beating big tall men with no defeats to them, but also Dempsey, so 1 of 2 ain't bad.

Only big tall fighter Ali ever beat is Terrell and Foreman, both dwarfed by the Klitschkos who are massively stronger and more powerful than Terrell and who can box much better with similar levels of power to Foreman. Ali very uneven in his performance even at his so called prime. Best, a good pick. Worst, forget about it. No gifts in this analysis like he got in his stinkemup fights.

Holmes was outboxed by Cooney who's form and stamina fell apart in later rounds and finally folded without a punch landing on him. Cooney never beat a prime contender, an inferior version of the K bros. None of Holmes' competition would remotely bother the brothers as Holmes defended against weak setups mostly. Easy fare for the brothers.

Foremen, Liston, and Frazier present problems, but the one off physical phenom Liston will fold mentally fairly early, like on the intros, so I give George and Joe a chance, but prime versions of each have no history of beating big guys. Frazier did beat undefeated Mathis, but he was a pure boxer not trained for power or using his size and strength. Be some great fights there but the brothers probably too accurate for Joe and it's a matter of if George can adjust to them boxing him off the back foot and then moving in for their power shots. Knowing George it's gonna end up a pier 6 donnybrook for the ages, and he won all those types of matches, but the brothers bigger and stronger than the little guys he over powered.

Only big guy UnHoly beat was Baby Huey Bowe, a mental midget and Bowe only beat when he started doing all his training in the kitcheon.

So, that leaves Tyson and Lewis, both having chances, Tyson in particular with his prime style and team intact, the best chances of the lot. Lewis is as vulnerable against Wlad as vice versa. Vitali showed he could handle Lewis style on short notice and was a much better fighter after their bout. I'd favor Vitali as that cutthe worst in heavy title history, a fluke.

Two fighters I give outside shots is Tunney and Charles, two quick, smallish guys capable of boxing and moving. Probably they get beat, but with Wlad's here today, gone tomorrow stamina snafus, we don't know if he might pull another Cooney. I doubt it, but there is some history.

I think you make a mistake in this post by looking at the match-ups from only one perspective.

You state that since Holmes was outboxed by Cooney (which I think is wrong) Holmes would lose to either klit since they are better than Cooney.

If you look at it from another perspective then the relevant question would be: Who has the klits fought that has movement, skills and jab that even remotely resembles Holmes? Answer: None. So by that logic Holmes is in for an easy night.

Arguments in that same exact fashion can be made for all the other fighters you mention. I hope you catch what I'm trying to say.

[-Swizzy-]

I think you make a mistake in this post by looking at the match-ups from only one perspective.

You state that since Holmes was outboxed by Cooney (which I think is wrong) Holmes would lose to either klit since they are better than Cooney.

If you look at it from another perspective then the relevant question would be: Who has the klits fought that has movement, skills and jab that even remotely resembles Holmes? Answer: None. So by that logic Holmes is in for an easy night.

Arguments in that same exact fashion can be made for all the other fighters you mention. I hope you catch what I'm trying to say.

EXACTLY the reply I was about to make.

None of those guys fought anyone like Vitali, but Vitali as well hasn't fought anyone even close to the fighters I mentioned.

So really, no one's arguments can really be supported here.

[LondonRingRules]

I think you make a mistake in this post by looking at the match-ups from only one perspective.

You state that since Holmes was outboxed by Cooney (which I think is wrong) Holmes would lose to either klit since they are better than Cooney.

If you look at it from another perspective then the relevant question would be: Who has the klits fought that has movement, skills and jab that even remotely resembles Holmes? Answer: None. So by that logic Holmes is in for an easy night.

Arguments in that same exact fashion can be made for all the other fighters you mention. I hope you catch what I'm trying to say.

** I here to tell you, I've not only lived through the Larry era, but studied him in retrospect more fully, and the guy was padding out his career, even in his comeback. There was no chance whatsoever he had to win a title back though I got a chuckle at how much trouble he gave the overrated Holy.

Here is the scoring for Cooney at the stoppage. 113-111 | 113-111 | 115-109 Keep in mind that Cooney was deducted at least 3 points for low blows. Without the penalties, Cooney was officially winning by at least 114-113, 114-113, 112-115. Save for the flash KD, Holmes barely touched Cooney until rd 12, and not that much.

Holmes "movement" may have been OK in his 20s, but he was pretty much the plodder for most of his title fights which is what he's touted for. His jab top shelf, but his skills were only good. No headmovement, no left hook. Little body work. Average inside skills bolstered by a first rate uppercut. Good grappling instincts. Game was 75% was jab, 15% grab, 10% rights, his strong points.

Vitali beat excellent boxer/punchers Larry Donald and Kirk Johnson whom you could plug into Larry's schedule starting with Norton on his last legs and they could march through Larry's comp with less difficulty than Larry often had. They had some size on Larry as well. Vitali has been the only fighter to stop them in their careers.

Getting back to movement, prime Byrd quicker of hand and foot and much more elusive than upright Larry and Vitali dominated Byrd until the point of his injury. Not only does Vitali have a 94% KO ratio, but that's about the same percent of rounds that he wins, always near a shutout on the cards.

Wlad beat Byrd twice, barely dropping a round, and beat a trickier, bigger, stronger southpaw boxer in Thompson, and undefeated Iggy too. Early on he beat Axel Shultz who many thought outboxed Foreman for his title. Wlad didn't just beat these guys, he KTFO all but Iggy after widely outscoring them.

In fact, the hurdle Larry has to overcome is not only size, strength, and power, but the fact that the brothers are boxers first who happen to be some of the most accurate punchers in history.

Larry had a chance to prove himself early on, but he never attempted unification in a rich era of talent. The WBA matches always had more talent in the ring than in Larry's title matches. Something missing in the guy who has the most massive inferiority complex I've ever seen in boxing. That some do think he's a great fighter not nearly enough for him. He knows deep down he should've pushed for better defenses and Spoon and Williams deserved near immediate rematches.

If Larry were fighting today, he'd still be part of the King stable and WBA merry go round with Ruiz/Holy/Niko, and Chagaev.

So it becomes my sad duty as the bearer of bad news to set the Holmes record straight. Heavyweight boxing has dramatically changed starting with the rise of Lewis. Tyson can be seen as the last of the old school heavies, the perfect fulcrum to the new era. The new heavies are struggling to learn what works best in this era and the brothers have it figured out best of all.

[Spartacus Sully]

Jim Jeffries come on constantly fighting out of the crouch he may not be able to hit due to lack of skill but i think vitali is going to have just as hard of a time. I mean you fight in a crouch vs taller people right and jeffries was almost as good in the crouch as dempsey. plus being the man that jim was i think he would be more then willing to take a few hits to make sure he got some in.

how many boxers did jeffries fight that were out boxers? i mean seeing that jeffries would sprint 100 yard intervals constantly whiel running 14 miles over 2 hours there is nothing that vitali could do to get away from him.

then you got strength, stamina, and chin Jeffries or vitali i think this should be obivious but maybe not.....

[RightCross94]

** Don't really matter what you think. What can you support?

First off, Louis with a history of beating big tall men with no defeats to them, but also Dempsey, so 1 of 2 ain't bad.

Only big tall fighter Ali ever beat is Terrell and Foreman, both dwarfed by the Klitschkos who are massively stronger and more powerful than Terrell and who can box much better with similar levels of power to Foreman. Ali very uneven in his performance even at his so called prime. Best, a good pick. Worst, forget about it. No gifts in this analysis like he got in his stinkemup fights.

Holmes was outboxed by Cooney who's form and stamina fell apart in later rounds and finally folded without a punch landing on him. Cooney never beat a prime contender, an inferior version of the K bros. None of Holmes' competition would remotely bother the brothers as Holmes defended against weak setups mostly. Easy fare for the brothers.

Foremen, Liston, and Frazier present problems, but the one off physical phenom Liston will fold mentally fairly early, like on the intros, so I give George and Joe a chance, but prime versions of each have no history of beating big guys. Frazier did beat undefeated Mathis, but he was a pure boxer not trained for power or using his size and strength. Be some great fights there but the brothers probably too accurate for Joe and it's a matter of if George can adjust to them boxing him off the back foot and then moving in for their power shots. Knowing George it's gonna end up a pier 6 donnybrook for the ages, and he won all those types of matches, but the brothers bigger and stronger than the little guys he over powered.

Only big guy UnHoly beat was Baby Huey Bowe, a mental midget and Bowe only beat when he started doing all his training in the kitcheon.

So, that leaves Tyson and Lewis, both having chances, Tyson in particular with his prime style and team intact, the best chances of the lot. Lewis is as vulnerable against Wlad as vice versa. Vitali showed he could handle Lewis style on short notice and was a much better fighter after their bout. I'd favor Vitali as that cutthe worst in heavy title history, a fluke.

Two fighters I give outside shots is Tunney and Charles, two quick, smallish guys capable of boxing and moving. Probably they get beat, but with Wlad's here today, gone tomorrow stamina snafus, we don't know if he might pull another Cooney. I doubt it, but there is some history.

i have a question:

does anyone care what LRR says? At all?

[Spartacus Sully]

I like to read what he has in the start of the thread. Hes able to put his opinions out at that point in time and they stay the same through the whole thread.

If you agree with his opinions then you have no reason to care any further as to what he has to say. though what people say to retort his comments are good reads but the 10 min reads afterwards that he posts just defend his point that he made in the beginning so why read it i mean the next post afterwards is a different argument so i assume he defends his original point.


It seems that the people that have a grudge against him or feel that his points are wrong are the people that care about what he says. perhaps they just hope he says something thats wrong and if they don't read what he says they wont know to point it out to him.

All in all if your not dealing with some one that constantly has something to say to defend their opinion this would probably be a 1 page thread. Not much information in a 1 page thread eh?