ATG Lists

[StarshipTrooper]

From a technical aspect, I wouldn't put Trinidad on my list either. He was a very one dimensional fighter who relied on the power of his punch to win the day. Anytime he was up against an opponet who had solid boxing fundamentals he failed, and failed big time. (The Oscar robbery, Hopkins, Wright)

But from an accomplishment standpoint, I can't remove him. He is a 3 division World Champion with victories over some of the best of his era.

I wouldn't put De La Hoya on the list because he is notorious for dropping the ball in every big fight he's ever been in. Granted you can argue that he won the Trinidad fight and the Mosley rematch, as most people think he did (myself included). But on paper, and in the books, he lost, and that's where it really matters.

Mosley will forever be tainted by taking steroids.

And I'm not sure it's fair to only rate a guy in one weight class, unless his name is Ray Robinson. Granted Robinson was the greatest multiple weight class conquerer, but some other great fighters have dominated multiple divisions and should be judged according to merit in each class, not just their natural one.

I think utimately what makes a fighter an ATG or not is a combination of ability and accomplishments. In the case of De La Hoya I don't think anybody has ever questioned his ability. As far as his resume goes, Oscar ducked no one. Pretty much every big name fighter within 10 pounds of him is on his record. He may not have beaten all of them but in an era when champions tend to avoid dangerous opponents his record stands out. I DO consider a whether a fight was a robbery or not as I'm ill inclined to punish a fighter because he got jobbed on the cards.

The problem with the Mosley-steroids issue is that he is hardly the only one who has that cloud following him. There have been numerous allegations that Evander Holyfield used steroids. There were rumours that Mike Tyson did the same. The problem as I see it is that we would have to throw out this entire era (much as they talk of doing with baseball) if we take too hard a line on the steroid issue. I'm not sure if I'm prepared to do that.

Ray Robinson gets that singular honor from because I consider him the greatest fighter ever regardless of weight class. It may be "unfair" to others but I like things clear-cut. It's not like I'm hosing them either as I'm rating them where they were at their best. As far as I'm concerned it's more of an honor for Ezzard Charles to be rated as the greatest Light-Heavyweight ever than, say, the 15th greatest Heavyweight. I'm certainly more interested in Roberto Duran as the greatest Lightweight ever than as a past-prime Welterweight getting wacked out by Tommy Hearns.

Poet

[RingTech01]

SRR was the best ever, case closed.

[ßringer]

I think utimately what makes a fighter an ATG or not is a combination of ability and accomplishments. In the case of De La Hoya I don't think anybody has ever questioned his ability. As far as his resume goes, Oscar ducked no one. Pretty much every big name fighter within 10 pounds of him is on his record. He may not have beaten all of them but in an era when champions tend to avoid dangerous opponents his record stands out. I DO consider a whether a fight was a robbery or not as I'm ill inclined to punish a fighter because he got jobbed on the cards.

The problem with the Mosley-steroids issue is that he is hardly the only one who has that cloud following him. There have been numerous allegations that Evander Holyfield used steroids. There were rumours that Mike Tyson did the same. The problem as I see it is that we would have to throw out this entire era (much as they talk of doing with baseball) if we take too hard a line on the steroid issue. I'm not sure if I'm prepared to do that.

Ray Robinson gets that singular honor from because I consider him the greatest fighter ever regardless of weight class. It may be "unfair" to others but I like things clear-cut. It's not like I'm hosing them either as I'm rating them where they were at their best. As far as I'm concerned it's more of an honor for Ezzard Charles to be rated as the greatest Light-Heavyweight ever than, say, the 15th greatest Heavyweight. I'm certainly more interested in Roberto Duran as the greatest Lightweight ever than as a past-prime Welterweight getting wacked out by Tommy Hearns.

Poet

You make some very good counterpoints, as usual. But do you really think the early and mid 90's era would be that bad, as far as steroid use went?

As for Oscar, we'll have to agree to disagree. Though I will concede that Oscar did fight every live body anywhere near his current division throughout his entire career. A ducker he most certainly was not.

[RingTech01]

second best, ali

[Southpaw16BF]

From a technical aspect, I wouldn't put Trinidad on my list either. He was a very one dimensional fighter who relied on the power of his punch to win the day. Anytime he was up against an opponet who had solid boxing fundamentals he failed, and failed big time. (The Oscar robbery, Hopkins, Wright)

But from an accomplishment standpoint, I can't remove him. He is a 3 division World Champion with victories over some of the best of his era.

I wouldn't put De La Hoya on the list because he is notorious for dropping the ball in every big fight he's ever been in. Granted you can argue that he won the Trinidad fight and the Mosley rematch, as most people think he did (myself included). But on paper, and in the books, he lost, and that's where it really matters.

Mosley will forever be tainted by taking steroids.

And I'm not sure it's fair to only rate a guy in one weight class, unless his name is Ray Robinson. Granted Robinson was the greatest multiple weight class conquerer, but some other great fighters have dominated multiple divisions and should be judged according to merit in each class, not just their natural one.

Just beacuse Trinidad was one dimensional, his place in history shound't be douted. It matters what you do in the prize ring, wheter you do it with one dimenstion or not. Should Stanley Ketcel or Rocky Grazinao legacy be taken away just because they were one dimensional?

Trinidad also had a big heart, and in his prime had great recovery skills from getting up fron knockdowns to win.

You also say ''Anytime he was up against an opponet who had solid boxing fundamentals he failed, and failed big time''

Not all of the time, as he proved when he fought Hector Camacho, who tryed to use his southpaw slipeness, and movement and boxing brain to outbox Triniadad. Trinidad showed good clever pressure to earn a decision victory.

William Joppy also try to outbox him, but Trinidad showed great timing and punching power to destroy him in 5.

Even do it was a very very faded Pernell Whitaker, Trinidad also got a decisive points victory over him.

So even do Trinidad's weak point was always a move/boxer, and probaly he lost to more he beat, i wound't say everytime he come across a boxer/mover he would be defeated.

[Southpaw16BF]

I think utimately what makes a fighter an ATG or not is a combination of ability and accomplishments. In the case of De La Hoya I don't think anybody has ever questioned his ability. As far as his resume goes, Oscar ducked no one. Pretty much every big name fighter within 10 pounds of him is on his record. He may not have beaten all of them but in an era when champions tend to avoid dangerous opponents his record stands out. I DO consider a whether a fight was a robbery or not as I'm ill inclined to punish a fighter because he got jobbed on the cards.

The problem with the Mosley-steroids issue is that he is hardly the only one who has that cloud following him. There have been numerous allegations that Evander Holyfield used steroids. There were rumours that Mike Tyson did the same. The problem as I see it is that we would have to throw out this entire era (much as they talk of doing with baseball) if we take too hard a line on the steroid issue. I'm not sure if I'm prepared to do that.

Ray Robinson gets that singular honor from because I consider him the greatest fighter ever regardless of weight class. It may be "unfair" to others but I like things clear-cut. It's not like I'm hosing them either as I'm rating them where they were at their best. As far as I'm concerned it's more of an honor for Ezzard Charles to be rated as the greatest Light-Heavyweight ever than, say, the 15th greatest Heavyweight. I'm certainly more interested in Roberto Duran as the greatest Lightweight ever than as a past-prime Welterweight getting wacked out by Tommy Hearns.

Poet

No one can dout De La Hoya's ability, but i always thought he avoided Ronald ''Winky Wright at 154, Winky always claimed De La Hoya never wanted nothing to do with him. And i don't think i'am my own here.

[ßringer]

Just beacuse Trinidad was one dimensional, his place in history shound't be douted. It matters what you do in the prize ring, wheter you do it with one dimenstion or not. Should Stanley Ketcel or Rocky Grazinao legacy be taken away just because they were one dimensional?

Trinidad also had a big heart, and in his prime had great recovery skills from getting up fron knockdowns to win.

You also say ''Anytime he was up against an opponet who had solid boxing fundamentals he failed, and failed big time''

Not all of the time, as he proved when he fought Hector Camacho, who tryed to use his southpaw slipeness, and movement and boxing brain to outbox Triniadad. Trinidad showed good clever pressure to earn a decision victory.

William Joppy also try to outbox him, but Trinidad showed great timing and punching power to destroy him in 5.

Even do it was a very very faded Pernell Whitaker, Trinidad also got a decisive points victory over him.

So even do Trinidad's weak point was always a move/boxer, and probaly be lost to more he beat, i wound't say everytime he come across a boxer/mover he would be defeated.

I said earlier that while I don't think Trinidad was a great fighter, in terms of technical abilities or ability to adapt, that I still place him as an ATG. Because, as you point out, ATG is all about accomplishment. And Trinidad has the accomplishments, one dimensional or not.

[StarshipTrooper]

You make some very good counterpoints, as usual. But do you really think the early and mid 90's era would be that bad, as far as steroid use went?

It's certainly possible. Both Tommy Morrison and Fernando Vargas were known roid users. Look at baseball: The general assumption these days is practically everyone swinging a bat was juiced.

Poet

[ßringer]

It's certainly possible. Both Tommy Morrison and Fernando Vargas were known roid users. Look at baseball: The general assumption these days is practically everyone swinging a bat was juiced.

Poet

That's a scary possibility. What part of ******ia do you live in anyway? I'm in the Bristol/Tri Cities area myself.

[StarshipTrooper]

You know what drives me nuts? Someone like Gene Tunney getting ranked on Heavyweight ATG lists when he had a grand total of FIVE fights at Heavyweight in a 60+ fight career. Cripes O'Friday how can someone be an ATG in a division THEY HARDLY FOUGHT IN!!!!!

Poet