PRIME Ali Beats PRIME Tyson Easy?

[Smokin'J]

Cus told Ali how he would lose his first match with Frazier and what happened?
Ali did lose it and even got the knockdown how Cus thought it would go down.

[HitBattousai]

Not prime Ali having trouble with Frazier does not mean he would have had the same problems with Frazier in his prime. In Ali/Frazier II, the first five rounds are an Ali white-wash because though slower and less elusive than he was in his prime, Frazier couldn't get to him as Ali had his best legs since returning. Only he couldn't maintain it past the first five rounds. Prime Ali could, and was faster/more elusive.

Mike could never land combinations against prime Ali, and Ali could stand up to any single shots Tyson landed. Ali would move, keep popping Tyson with his jab and short combinations, and Tyson would wear down. Most likely Mike would last the distance, because Ali isn't a power puncher and Tyson had a great chin, but Ali would win via UD.

[them_apples]

His combination of strength and speed made him a great puncher, but I'm afraid I don't see any other signs of greatness in him. His 'prime' was pathetically brief, he had no ring savvy to speak of, he had no dedication or heart, he was totally annihilated by the likes of Douglas, Holyfield, Lewis, Williams, McBride..

I used to say that, starting putting him down at say no. 20 (still high for some people) but then I would start looking at some of the other contenders on peoples top 10 lists. Fighters like Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey and even Frazier. not that they were bad or anything, but I fail to see how they were greater than a guy like Tyson. For me he now resides around number 8, still high for some people, (but hey I'm a fan)

I think Tyson did have a peak, but not to the extent that some people are saying. A Prime Holyfield will always beat Mike, regardless, so will a slew of other Heavyweights. I will say that Tyson who fought Douglas looked awful though and it's generally only haters that bring up that fight. (Ali gets less heat for being beaten by Spinks)

There aren't enough truly great heavyweights to legitimately put Tyson out of the picture. Where as in divisions like welterweight, middleweight etc there are tons of great fighters all battling for a position.

In terms of measuring greatness though,

Tyson's resume is average, it looks better when you look at how he did it. Losing to a journey man did not help his cause though and put's a dark cloud over his career, if he had his first loss to Holyfield I think people would respect him more.

still, he was 21 when he cleaned out his division, hammered undefeated Spinks in 90 seconds, and was the only man to knock out Holmes. It's enough to Warrant a no. 8 spot.

[LondonRingRules]

Actually he's a 24 karot idiot. He hates Ali and spends most of his time trying to discredit him. He nuthugs Tyson like he's his gay lover......Poet

** Ah, poor prepubescent poet tri-rhyming nuthugger, koolaide and gay in unceasing stanzas of desperate doggeral anytime Tyson is mentioned.

Putting me on ignore never helped him much it any more than the ritalin did.

Here's a Valentine poem just for Poet don't ya know it:

Poets are red and nuthuggers blue.
Gay as purple as his koolaide is too.

[KostyaTszyu44]

dude do you not see greatness in tyson?

nope

i see a very talented young man who had absolutely no brain and no idea of how to act properly, and a man with a bully mentality who crumbled the first time he fought a man who wasnt scared of him

[them_apples]

nope

i see a very talented young man who had absolutely no brain and no idea of how to act properly, and a man with a bully mentality who crumbled the first time he fought a man who wasnt scared of him

you could say the same about Foreman to, a lot of his power was based on his opponents fear.

[KJB]

People put WAY to much stock in D'Amato and his ability to make Tyson better than he was. It's not like Kevin Rooney was chopped liver afterall. These same people then, in turn overrate ROONEY'S ability to make Tyson better than he was when comparing him pre and post the first Bruno fight. Get real people: A trainer has only so much impact on a fighter and ultimately a fighter enters the ring alone.

There's way to much playing of the "If only....." game with Tyson. I know of no other fighter that consistantly pulls that kind of wishful thinking. Tyson was the only fighter ever to have negative **** impact his career? Please.

What if.....

Jack Johnson hadn't been pursued by the government?
Joe Louis hadn't lost 4 years off his prime due to WWII?
Sonny Liston had gotten his title shot while still in prime?
Ali hadn't lost 3 years off his prime due to his being banned?

You can play this game with almost any fighter. In Tyson's case people really need to get a clue and dump the non-stop wishful thinking. Face it, no matter how many ifs and buts you dream and wish for you won't make Tyson into something he wasn't: That is anything close to being the best ever.

Poet

Excellent post and I fully agree.

[robjr]

tyson wins.

[La_Vibora]

People put WAY to much stock in D'Amato and his ability to make Tyson better than he was. It's not like Kevin Rooney was chopped liver afterall. These same people then, in turn overrate ROONEY'S ability to make Tyson better than he was when comparing him pre and post the first Bruno fight. Get real people: A trainer has only so much impact on a fighter and ultimately a fighter enters the ring alone.

There's way to much playing of the "If only....." game with Tyson. I know of no other fighter that consistantly pulls that kind of wishful thinking. Tyson was the only fighter ever to have negative **** impact his career? Please.

What if.....

Jack Johnson hadn't been pursued by the government?
Joe Louis hadn't lost 4 years off his prime due to WWII?
Sonny Liston had gotten his title shot while still in prime?
Ali hadn't lost 3 years off his prime due to his being banned?

You can play this game with almost any fighter. In Tyson's case people really need to get a clue and dump the non-stop wishful thinking. Face it, no matter how many ifs and buts you dream and wish for you won't make Tyson into something he wasn't: That is anything close to being the best ever.

Poet

What does that have to do with my post? The point is that Cus felt he had a blueprint to defeat Ali, he just needed the right fighter to lay out his plan. I was mentioning Cus in the context of better helping him prepare for Ali because he knew Ali very well and as one of the greatest teachers/boxing minds in the history of sport would have had Tyson taking Ali at his absolute best. I don't understand how that turns into comparisons with Liston, Ali, and Joe Louis. Furthermore, I think its ridiculous to say that trainers won't make a difference, if that were the case we wouldn't see trainers being hired and fired all the time.

[La_Vibora]

nope

i see a very talented young man who had absolutely no brain and no idea of how to act properly, and a man with a bully mentality who crumbled the first time he fought a man who wasnt scared of him

Thats a myth that Tyson could only beat people that were scared of him. Tony Tucker wasn't scared of him, old man Larry wasn't scared of him,Ruddock wasn't scared of him, even later on Frans Botha wasn't scared of him either. I have always had the opinion that Tyson was a product of a great system, he was a very good fighter that was part of a system that made him great, but once out of the system he was just a very good fighter and not a great one.