Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[Ivich]

You are obviously the one obsessed with "winning." You talk about it non-stop while we are having simple discussions. How about you give it a rest and focus on backing up your claims . You can start by showing proof that Dempsey only meant the 1915 offered fight when he claimed he was afraid of Langford, because the information I found after doing a little research contradicts that. So I'm not sure why you were saying that as if it was a fact. Seems it was simply incorrect.

If that's a "win," then so be it. But you seem to be the only one concerned with it.

Dempsey explained the date line of that quote in his book and also in a Ring article,but Im not trawling through 25 years of Ring magazines to locate it.

[travestyny]

Dempsey explained the date line of that quote in his book and also in a Ring article,but Im not trawling through 25 years of Ring magazines to locate it.

Well I don't know what to tell you if we can't see it. I can only post on what I've seen, and in what I posted he clearly stated that it was regarding the multiple times he was asked to fight Langford and reneged each time. So my guess is that it at least includes when Langford was after the fight in 1918. I don't think anyone can seriously argue that Dempsey wouldn't have been ready in mid to late 1918.


I have one of his books, and he doesn't mention this quotation there. The article I posted referenced his other book (which seems to have the same name as the book I have, so perhaps they are different editions), so that information I posted may very well come directly from that book.

[Ivich]

It is relevant. Those times he pursued a fight with Dempsey, he was already past it. He said he feared Langford while he was still coming up and inexperienced back in 1915 when Jack was barely 20 years old and Langford ten years his senior. After Dempsey was champ, Sam was a shell of himself. No real significant wins from '20-'25, 15 losses and 14 draws, 3 losses in '20, '21, and '22 to Dempsey's sparring partner. There was no reason for Dempsey to fight him. They passed on Sam out of pity, and knowing the obstacles in making that fight weren't going to be worth it. If Dempsey fights and beats Langford post 1920, there is no glory in that.

Dempsey had agreed to what we assume was to be a gentle exhibition against a man he had already beaten.Why would he want to spar with 39 years old Jeannette who would presumably be anxious to show he was not yet a back number and ,if he made a good showing would be prolonging his own terminally waning career.Allied to this is the fact that Dempsey was due to have a real fight for money with Dan Porky Flynn two days later,it makes no sense on any level..

[travestyny]

Dempsey had agreed to what we assume was to be a gentle exhibition against a man he had already beaten.Why would he want to spar with 39 years old Jeannette who would presumably be anxious to show he was not yet a back number and ,if he made a good showing would be prolonging his own terminally waning career.Allied to this is the fact that Dempsey was due to have a real fight for money with Dan Porky Flynn two days later,it makes no sense on any level..

Would it make sense to fight any two white men in the house instead? That's the issue I have with this.


I'm not saying Jeannette was what he used to be. He wasn't. But he only lost one fight after this point, and that was to Harry Wills.

[Ivich]

Would he have been ready for Langford in mid to late 1918? I already showed the proof that this wasn't just about 1915 or whenever. He stated that it was about the multiple times he was asked to fight Langford and he refused every time. I posted that info a page back or so.


As for the Jeannette situation, Demspey's statement that he would fight ANY TWO white men seems to be backed up by at least two sources. One being the NY Times article about the issue. In the NYTimes article, it even mentions that two White men stepped up to the challenge, and then the challenge was rescinded. So clearly it happened unless the NY Times had an agenda to make up the offer, make up two White men stepping up, and then making up the eventual backing out.

The other is straight from Dempsey's own article. It doesn't get more primary source than that.

What do you suppose a fight between Dempsey and Langford, from August1919 onwards [when he was champion] would have drawn? Which promoters do you say/ think would have been prepared to promote such a match?
Can you name a promoter.site,date, purse bid ,for a Langford fight fromJuly1919 that Dempsey turned down ? Which wins during Dempsey's title reign do you think made Langford a credible title challenger?
When Reisler proposed the Langford fight Dempsey's; biggest purse had been $500 for the John Lester Johnson fight, of that Reisler took $400 leaving Dempsey $100,it made no sense for the barely 20 years old Dempsey to take on Langford at that time.
After his 2nd fight with Dempsey, GunBoat Smith,who holds a win over Langford stated Dempsey had improved out all all recognition.Dempsey had him down 10 times before flooring him for the count.Matching 36 years old half blind Sam with the Dempsey of Toledo would have been criminal. Pollack does not mention any white boxers stepping up to challenge Dempsey for that exhibition.
Nowhere in Pollack's book or Roger Kahn's or Randy Roberts is there mention of these numerous challenges for Dempsey to fight Langford ,neither is there any named promoter ,site, or purse details of such a proposed match.Don't you find that strange? You say Jeannette only lost 1 fight after the date of the proposed exhibition? Lets look at that
He had 8 fights and they were in chronological order
Andy Schrader 2-1-1 won
Tom Cowler 42-19-2 won
Bert Kenny10 -18-4 won
Clay Turner 33-10-1 won
Tom Cowler now43-21-2 won
Harry Wills .Lost
Bartley Madden 20-l1-5
Harry Gibson 0-0-0 Draw
Bert Kenny was a spar partner going back to Jack Johnson's era.
Clay Turner was a spar partner for Dempsey.
Cowler had been a decent fighter but was now washed up.

Do you think those wins, over that level of opposition amounts to anything significant?

[QueensburyRules]

Dempsey was referring to the attempt of his then manager John Reisler to match him with Langford when he himself was still a green up and comer,he explains that in his autobiography .He knew he wasnt ready for such tough experienced opposition he also turned down a fight with Gun Boat Smith and Frank Moran around the same time both white boxers .
Reisler threatened and cajoled him into fighting John Lester Johnson a match he wasn't really ready for. Dempsey fought Johnson in the black Harlem Club sustained 3 broken ribs early in the fight but struggled through the ten rds to lose a dec ,pretty commendable imo.
Later with more fights and ring experience under his belt he butchered Smith and had to take it easy on Johnson when he joined his camp as a sparring partner ,its all about timing In 1916 Dempsey wasn't ready for Langford. In1917Fred Fulton jabbed Langford's head off and permanently damaged his eye leaving him sightless in it. Dempsey "Tsunamied " Fulton , a years later, taking him out inside 23 seconds !
One of Dempsey's sparring partners for Fulton was Battling Jim Johnson Dempsey beat up the 30 years old Johnson and Kearns had to restrain Dempsey because he said," I cant get sparring partners for you".Johnson said,"I would rather fight any man in the world than box Dempsey for fun."
Johnson had fought Wills,Langford,Jack Johnson,and Jeannette. So in1917 we have Fulton stopping Langford in 7 rds and a year beating him again One year after Dempsey beating the **** out of Fulton in23 seconds,yet Dempsey was still afraid to face Langford?
Does that make any kind of logical sense to you?

By the time Dempsey was Champion, in1919 Langford was fat ,half blind 36 years old and on the slide ,Dempsey would have hurt him badly and it would have been a criminal match to make.
Pollack's exhaustively researched first volume on Dempsey deals with the Jeannette incident and supplies many primary sources from contemporary news reports and named writers,nowhere does it mention a quote of fighting any two white men,in fact Dempsey said he had agreed to fight Joe Bonds and Joe Bonds only,which rather implies he may well have refused to spar with any other white boxer. Dempsey later gave his services in a benefit for Langford, along with other boxers he gave an exhibition to raise much needed funds for Sam.

- - It's sorta like what grade U get kicked out of 63 years ago?

https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/J...Lester_Johnson



Dempsey reportedly received $100 and Johnson $200. It was the first "mixed" bout allowed since the ban had been lifted, according to the New York Sun.

Opinions as to the winner were divided. Also, the weights mentioned varied from one newspaper to another.

The headline in the New York Sun read: Johnson Outpoints Dempsey and Local Boxer Has Easy Time Beating Salt Lake City Lad.

One New York newspaper gave this report in a one-inch story: "John Lester Johnson outpointed Jack Dempsey in the Harlem Sporting Club last night. Dempsey failed to live up to the reputation that he earned in Salt Lake City, and was an easy mark for the local boxer."

Another newspaper reported: "Neither boxer was ever in danger, but at the finish Johnson was very tired from the heavy punishment he received in the mid-section and around the head."

The New York World called the fight "a fast ten-round draw."

The New York Tribune reported: "John Lester Johnson won over Jack Dempsey."

The Salt lake Tribune reported: "Jack Dempsey, the Salt Lake heavyweight, who has been causing such a stir among New York fans since he left here recently, last night won by a big shade over John Lester Johnson, one of the toughest negro fighters in New York. In their ten-round bout before the Harlem Sporting club, according to a telegram received by Dempsey's manager, Jack Price."

In his book A Flame of Pure Fire: Jack Dempsey and the Roaring '20s, Roger Kahn writes: "The consensus of sportswriters gave a big hand to Dempsey's courage and a narrow decision to Johnson."

Shortly before Dempsey won the World Heavyweight Championship in 1919, The Cedar Rapids Evening Gazette quoted him as saying the following about his fight with John Lester Johnson: "In the second round, Johnson pulled something on me I had never seen before. He just lifted my right arm up high and then soaked me in the ribs. He broke three of 'em for me. He hit me on the chin in that round, too, and I saw many a star. He knew too much for me. ... I thought he licked me. I didn't know how to fight then, and Johnson did. Yes, I think he won and he taught me more that night than I have ever dreamed of before."

In the January 1960 issue of Ebony, Johnson was quoted as saying the following about his fight with Dempsey: "I said that night that he was going to be champion. That guy could really hit. He hit me so hard and so fast for a while there I could hardy get my breath."

Dempsey later hired Johnson as a sparring partner.

Johnson was the last African-American fighter Dempsey would face during his career.

[Ivich]

- - It's sorta like what grade U get kicked out of 63 years ago?

https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/J...Lester_Johnson



Dempsey reportedly received $100 and Johnson $200. It was the first "mixed" bout allowed since the ban had been lifted, according to the New York Sun.

Opinions as to the winner were divided. Also, the weights mentioned varied from one newspaper to another.

The headline in the New York Sun read: Johnson Outpoints Dempsey and Local Boxer Has Easy Time Beating Salt Lake City Lad.

One New York newspaper gave this report in a one-inch story: "John Lester Johnson outpointed Jack Dempsey in the Harlem Sporting Club last night. Dempsey failed to live up to the reputation that he earned in Salt Lake City, and was an easy mark for the local boxer."

Another newspaper reported: "Neither boxer was ever in danger, but at the finish Johnson was very tired from the heavy punishment he received in the mid-section and around the head."

The New York World called the fight "a fast ten-round draw."

The New York Tribune reported: "John Lester Johnson won over Jack Dempsey."

The Salt lake Tribune reported: "Jack Dempsey, the Salt Lake heavyweight, who has been causing such a stir among New York fans since he left here recently, last night won by a big shade over John Lester Johnson, one of the toughest negro fighters in New York. In their ten-round bout before the Harlem Sporting club, according to a telegram received by Dempsey's manager, Jack Price."

In his book A Flame of Pure Fire: Jack Dempsey and the Roaring '20s, Roger Kahn writes: "The consensus of sportswriters gave a big hand to Dempsey's courage and a narrow decision to Johnson."

Shortly before Dempsey won the World Heavyweight Championship in 1919, The Cedar Rapids Evening Gazette quoted him as saying the following about his fight with John Lester Johnson: "In the second round, Johnson pulled something on me I had never seen before. He just lifted my right arm up high and then soaked me in the ribs. He broke three of 'em for me. He hit me on the chin in that round, too, and I saw many a star. He knew too much for me. ... I thought he licked me. I didn't know how to fight then, and Johnson did. Yes, I think he won and he taught me more that night than I have ever dreamed of before."

In the January 1960 issue of Ebony, Johnson was quoted as saying the following about his fight with Dempsey: "I said that night that he was going to be champion. That guy could really hit. He hit me so hard and so fast for a while there I could hardy get my breath."

Dempsey later hired Johnson as a sparring partner.

Johnson was the last African-American fighter Dempsey would face during his career.

Pollack says he got $100 of the $ 500 purse. I'll stick with him. Do you preface each post with insults?Does it make you feel clever/big?

[QueensburyRules]

Pollack says he got $100 of the $ 500 purse. I'll stick with him. Do you preface each post with insults?Does it make you feel clever/big?

- - Can't say I feel clever in noting Pollack agrees with the boxrec Dempsey purse.

But hey, if participation is your thing minus context and accuracy, U graduate A+++!!!

There was no winner is the net result of the fight save the fighters who put on a great, spirited HBO main event worthy fight that the fans and media loved.

Dempsey's % of his purse enough to leave the soupline he'd been standing in for a meal that allow him to ride the rails back west for rib recuperation before hooking up with Kearns and the rest history...Amen!

[GhostofDempsey]

Dude, it's a discussion. And one about things that happened a very long time ago. It won't change anything for anyone. You can relax.

There is no ace up my sleeve. I asked because besides Dempsey's mention of being offered the fight circa 1915 or so, the only other instance I can find of him being offered the fight before becoming champ was in mid/late 1918. And I certainly believe that wasn't too soon for Dempsey. You may disagree, as is your right

Langford fought 12x in 1918. When would he have earned a fight with Dempsey? After his two consecutive losses to Wills? Or after his 2 draws and a loss to Jeff Clark? He ended that year with a loss to Fulton, same guy Dempsey knocked out in the first round that year. Langford's decline can be seen at around that time.

[Ivich]

- - Can't say I feel clever in noting Pollack agrees with the boxrec Dempsey purse.

But hey, if participation is your thing minus context and accuracy, U graduate A+++!!!

There was no winner is the net result of the fight save the fighters who put on a great, spirited HBO main event worthy fight that the fans and media loved.

Dempsey's % of his purse enough to leave the soupline he'd been standing in for a meal that allow him to ride the rails back west for rib recuperation before hooking up with Kearns and the rest history...Amen!

I'm talking about the first part of your post.Its like a compulsion with you.

- "- It's sorta like what grade U get kicked out of 63 years ago?"
I'm English I went to a Technical College.
I've all the reports of the fight, some gave it to Johnson some thought Dempsey worthy of a draw its irrelevant to the subject being discussed really.