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[UnDeniable]

Johnson also faced the smaller Stanley Ketchel, Delivering a brutal KO which supposedly embedded many of Ketchels teeth into Johnsons glove. It seems that back then it was not unusual to have huge size differences between the fighters, i wonder how many of the modern fighters would cope back then.

Was their ever a case of the smaller man defeating the larger fighter back then as in a fighter weighing 150-155 winning against a fighter weighing 195-200

[Hearnsz]

Was their ever a case of the smaller man defeating the larger fighter back then as in a fighter weighing 150-155 winning against a fighter weighing 195-200

Likely not. But that's because 150 vs 200 fights only happened in the old days back when the majority of the fighters were white. Fitzsimmons probably knocked out some guys who were alot heavier but also white. And so did Langford I'm guessing. I suppose they were both freaks of nature too.

Btw, I also just read somewhere that another possible reason why the Jack Johnson - Sam Langford rematch never happened was because Johnson said it was pointless to have 2 black men fight over the heavyweight title... And there were also financial issues I think.

[Yogi]

Btw, I also just read somewhere that another possible reason why the Jack Johnson - Sam Langford rematch never happened was because Johnson said it was pointless to have 2 black men fight over the heavyweight title... And there were also financial issues I think.

Jack Johnson is full of **** if he said that it was pointless to defend again another black man, because he did in fact defend against one when he faced Battling Jim Johnson in Dec of 1913, which was a bout that took place in Paris.

The financial reasons Johnson may have stated are also incorrect because, every time he made a demand of money to defend against Langford either a promoter like Hugh McIntosh or, when it came to side bets, Langford (and backers) himself stepped forward with the money.

That's a long story with many, many different examples, so starting from the beginning when Johnson started ducking him, let's look at their initial agreement to face each other in a rematch scheduled for May 24th, 1909 (as stated earlier in the thread, Johnson agreed to the match in return for loan by the NSC that was reported to be $6,000), and here's an actual written statement from Johnson to the National Sporting Club in London that was signed on Sept 19th, 1908, and printed in a number of different sources back then;

"To the committee of the National Sporting Club.
Gentlemen: I undertake and agree to carry out my contest with Sam Langford on the 22d of February, 1909, on the same terms and conditions as already arranged with Langford, viz. 1,000 pound purse and one-third of the interest in any bioscopic pictures that may be taken. At the same time allow me to tender my thanks to you for the courtesy you have extended to myself and manager, Mr. Sam Fitzpatrick, while we have been in this country. I am, gentlemen, yours faithfully.
Jack Johnson"

Johnson asked for and was granted an extension on that agreement by the NSC, and then a few months later;

"JOHNSON ACCEPTS OFFER

Agrees to Fight Sam Langford Before London Club on Derby Day

London, Feb. 5--Jack Johnson, the heavyweight champion, tonight notified the National Sporting Club that he has accepted their offer of a $6,000 purse for a match of twenty rounds with Sam Langford. The fight will take place during Derby week and the purse will be divided, $4,000 to the winner and $2,000 to the loser. Each man is to recieve $750 to cover travelling and training expenses." - Various sources printed between Feb 6th and Feb 8th, with this one taken from the Feb 8th, 1909, Salt Lake Herald

From that point on their were NUMEROUS newspaper sources from back then stating that Johnson and Langford were going to meet in London on May 24th, including more quotes from Johnson himself when he wrote a letter to a sportswriter by a W.H. Moseley as printed in sources dated Feb 22nd, 1909;

"As to your suggestion that I don't fight fight Langford in the event I whipped Burns, I will say that I am open to all comers and would not call myself the champion if I cannot defend the title. I gave my word to my English friends to fight Langford, win or lose with Burns, and I shall do so. I know Sam has whipped some good men in America lately and that I am going up against warm proposition, but you will remember I bested him in our fifteen-round fight, and while he has improved a great deal from his recent fights, I have learned a thing or two myself. I do think, however, that Sam is the best today in the game outside of myself; but when we fight get a big bunch on me, for 'I'll deliver the goods'.
Jack Johnson, Champion of the World, of Galveston, Texas, U.S.A."

Johnson signs the agreement to face Langford in London, publicly states that he has agreed to the fight in many sources, and then pulls out of the fight around Mar 18th, of 1909, gets himself called a "coward" and "yellow" by the press (some papers, such as the Times Dispatch, Apr 18th, report that Johnson was "hot under the collar" and whatnot over being called such things, but still stuck to his backing out of the fight, as well as getting called out by the manager (a Mr. Bettinson) of the NSC for failing to honour the agreement, and then publicly admits on Apr 19that "he broke his word" after stating that he "had promised to fight Langford at London (both quotes taken from Washington Times, Apr 19th, 1909)

Anyways, I don't want to go on forever in this post, but that's just a small sampling of it, and by only using a couple (of many, many) different sources on the matter.

[Yogi]

Was their ever a case of the smaller man defeating the larger fighter back then as in a fighter weighing 150-155 winning against a fighter weighing 195-200

There were, but Langford wasn't going to be weighing 150 to 155 if he had faced Johnson again, as even during the ill fated London bout slated for the spring of 1909, Langford and his manager, Joe Woodman, were stating that he'd be entering the ring to face Johnson at 170 pounds.

Weight wasn't considered as much of a factor in those days compared to today's "bigger is better" era of boxing fans, and there were articles written expressing exactly that back then (Feb 7th, 1909, Washington Times speaks on this very story and how weight or size "counts little in making champs").

As per the potential Johnson/Langford rematch, some written opinions thought Johnson's size would be the deciding factor, although there were also plenty of opinions stating that Langford would win the rematch if it had taken place. James Jeffries, himself, was quotes that he thought Langford would win the fight scheduled for May of 1909, as did old-time managers like Tom O' Rourke (who managed one of those fighters who never found size an obstacle, Barbados Joe Walcott, who, as a short and stocky welterweight, proceeded to knock out some heavyweights).

[Yogi]

I didn't mean he never won A title btw, I meant world championship title.
Thanks again for the info but some of the stuff is difficult to read for me as I'm not englishspeaking ...

I consider Langford the light heavyweight champion of the world during those years I stated, and possibly even earlier if you consider that when the British and America specified strict weight divisions in Feb of 1909, Langford was listed as the light heavyweight champion*

If you go by the definition of champion as being "one acknowledged to be better than all others", and also consider the vast amount of advertising and support he got as the light heavyweight champion of the world (including after he knocked out the last acknowledged linear light heavyweight champion, Jack O' Brien, as well as from official governing bodies), as well as considering he weighed in between the limit during those years from 1909 to 1912, I don't see the argument against it. He certainly had more claims and a hell of a lot more support to that title than did Jack Dillon did when he defeated Hugo Kelly in 1912, which is a fight that many different modern day sources say started the linear light heavyweight title again, despite it being, at the time (in the days leading up to and the days after...including the reports from the Indianapolis Star), nothing more than advertised as a middleweight fight between two middleweight claimants.

*The article from the Times Dispatch, Feb 14th, 1909 is too long to write out in full, but in discussing the strict weight classes and whatnot, the article states the following at the bottom;

"Under the new American classification of weights, the present-day champions would stand like this: Paperweight, Johnny Coulon; bantam, Young O' Leary; feather, Abe Attell; heavy feather, Jem Driscoll; light, Battling Nelson; welter, Jack Blackburn; light middle, Jack Gardner; middle, Stanley Ketchel; light heavy, Sam Langford; heavy, Jack Johnson

There was also an AP article out of New York written by Jeff Thompson that was published in that source and others on that same date (again speaking of the weight divisions being set by both the British and Americnas), and it also lists "present champion, S. Langford" for the "light heavy" class.

Does anybody have any sources that state otherwise that weren't written after, what was it 1942 when the first boxing record keeping book came out?

[Yogi]

So I take it you're not going to believe Johnson's own account of the fight, as written in 1910 and printed in his French biography 'Mes Combat'?

"I found him one of the toughest adversaries I ever met in the ring. I weighed 190 and Langford only 138. In the second round the little negro hit me on the jaw with a terrible right hand and I fell as if upended by a cannon ball. In all my pugilistic career, not before and not afterwards, have I recieved a blow that struck me with such force. It was all I could just to get back on my feet just as the referee was about to count 'Ten!' I made it, but I assure you that I felt the effects of that punch for the rest of the fight. I recovered but I would have to take my hat off to him if I hadn't had so much science at my comment. In the fifteenth round I was declared the winner on points." - Jack Johnson

For comparision's sake to Johnson's account, here's a short description of Langford's account of their first fight as printed in the Mar 29th, 1909 edition of the New York Sun;

"If he thought he had a chance to beat me Johnson would be in England in May ready to fight. But he hasn't forgotten the time I had him practically knocked out in two rounds in Boston three years ago, when I weighed under 140 pounds. Johnson knows that I will weigh 170 if he takes me on and that I have improved a hundred per cent since our last fight. That is why he has dodged me, and you can bet he'll never take another chance with me again unless he is forced into a match by public opinion." - Sam Langford

Another account alluding to that possible 2nd round knockdown;

"I saw Langford and Johnson box two years ago in Boston. On that occasion, Langford, who weighed only 138 pounds, had Johnson down for the count in the second round. The referee took his time in counting the seconds, so that Johnson was able to recover by the time he got up. After that Johnson took no chances and won on points at the end of fifteen rounds." - famous fight mananger of the early days, Tom O'Rourke, as stated feb 5th, 1909, and printed in various sources over the next couple/few days (this taken from the Ogden Standard, Feb 8th)

Here's another similiar account;

"In 1906, Langford, then weighing only 138 pounds, had Johnson almsot out in the second round of a fifteen round bout at Chelsea, Mass. Langford in a hot mixup caught 'Little Arthur' on the point of the jaw with a terrific uppercut and down went the big colored boxer in a heap. The referee was accused of giving johnson the benefit of a 'slow count', several watch holders at the ringside declaring that the present champion was on the floor for more than fifteen seconds actual time. At any rate Johnson finally managed to regain his feet, and then boxing Langford at long range for the remaining rounds, he was declared the winner on points." - March 6th, 1909, New York Sun

With Johnson & Langford stating it themselves, as well as a couple of others stating the 2nd round knockdown happened, does that count as believable? Hmm?

[Yogi]

"I think Sam Langford was the greatest fighter we ever had." - Jack Dempsey in Peter Heller's 'In This Corner'

"Langford was the greatest fighter who ever lived." - Joe Jeannette in an old issue of 'Boxing Illustrated

Just a couple of quick quotes from the fighters from around Langford's time, and that opinion was echoed by many different fighters of the day, including Harry Wills, Abe Atell, Frank Erne, Gunboat Smith etc., etc.

Those opinions were also echoed by many of the most famous sportswriters of the time, on this side of the pond and abroad, including two of the most famous, Hype Igoe, who proclaimed Langford the "greatest fighter, pound for pound, who ever lived" and the most famous sportswriter of them all from those early days (and possibly any day or time), Grantland Rice, who stated that Langford was "the best fighting man I ever watched".

[JAB5239]

"I think Sam Langford was the greatest fighter we ever had." - Jack Dempsey in Peter Heller's 'In This Corner'

"Langford was the greatest fighter who ever lived." - Joe Jeannette in an old issue of 'Boxing Illustrated

Just a couple of quick quotes from the fighters from around Langford's time, and that opinion was echoed by many different fighters of the day, including Harry Wills, Abe Atell, Frank Erne, Gunboat Smith etc., etc.

Those opinions were also echoed by many of the most famous sportswriters of the time, on this side of the pond and abroad, including two of the most famous, Hype Igoe, who proclaimed Langford the "greatest fighter, pound for pound, who ever lived" and the most famous sportswriter of them all from those early days (and possibly any day or time), Grantland Rice, who stated that Langford was "the best fighting man I ever watched".

Excellent, informative posts! Thanks Yogi.

[lum-chate]

You kinda have to give 10 names to in order for the system to work. There's lots of great names to choose from. I'm sure you can find more

6. Marciano undefeated as HW weighing @190
7. Dempsey
8. Carlos Monzon
9. Jack Johnson
10. Arguello

[McGrain]

Great stuff from Yogi. Here's me:

01 - Sam Langford
02 - Sugar Ray Robinson
03 - Harry Greb
04 - Hank Armstrong
------------------------

I consider these four elite and feel they should make up any given four in any order.

05 - Ezzard Charles
06 - Mickey Walker
07 - Willie Pep
08 - Roberto Duran
09 - Archie Moore
10 - Bob Fitzsimmons