BoxingScene's members top 10 P4P all-time

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Jab5239....Great great reads. You know your stuff, we may not agree on everything, but for the most part we do.

Roy I agree his level of competition pales to what Duran faced. However, Duran lost these fights or at least most of them. Duran dominated lightweight fightintg far easier level of compeition than Roy did. At least 1/3 of his fights were vs fighters that would struggle to be considered valid sparring partners. However, you do have to give Duran credit he was great, and did move up and beat Ray at 147, and yes he did earn a part of the middleweight championship 21 years after he started.

Compare that to Roy....He was undefeated (except for a dq) until he reach 35 and moved down from heavyweight to accept challenges. He beat fighters the quality of what Duran beat except for Leonard. Duran lost these fights that many give him credit for excepting these challenges, and for the most part these fights were before he reached age 34. Roy moved up 40 pounds to challenge for Heavyweight title..Duran moved up 50 pounds from 118 ( the weight for his first fight) to 168....Hmmm great on both parts. Duran did lose to Dejesus, and was dropped the 2nd fight before coming on to stop him. I think many will simply give Duran the nod, with out digging deep into this comparison. If you do Roy looks much better than what many would initially think.


I think fighters from the past were definately tougher, had more stamina, and could take a better punch. However, Ray Robinson, Ali, Leoanrd, Whitacker, have all shown that their style of speed, combinations, movement, right hand leads..etc..this style has continously shown to best the best fighters of the yesteryear's style. Liston, Duran, Chavez, and the great fighters Robinson beat, all struggle mightily when dealing with the angles, speed, counterpunching styles that Robinson initially started, ali took to another level, and then leonard kept it going. Do you think Marciano would be undefeated had he had to face Ali, Tyson, etc...He may have beaten Tyson, but would lose to Ali...etc.


Your points about Mayweather I concur...I hate him myself, I think he has avoided the best at Welter...However,,,However....keep this in mind. Leonard didnt campaign effectivly at middleweight or higher. He did win the belt, but he never campaigned vs the best at that weight class, above Welter. Duran moved up and got beat repeatedly. Dlh move up and got beat, Whitacker has many top fights at the lower weight, but did not campaign effectivly at the higher weights...

We all hate Mayweather, but the fact is no he did not fight William, Cotto, or Margerito, but outside of Robinson and now pacquio,,who has moved up roughly 20 pounds and faced the best at that higher weight class, and repeatedly won. Roy is close but there are names he did not fight either..Duran lost, leoanrd was retired, etc..etc.. etc.. so how can we slam Mayweather. In all honesty he is fighting 18 pounds north of his orginal weight class, and has done so better than most.

[slicksouthpaw16]

I go by accomplishments and opposition. This is my list of top 10 greats in this order.

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Muhammed Ali
3. Joe Louis
4. Roberto Duran
5. Henry Armstrong
6. Willie Pep
7. Sam Langford
8. Jack Johnson
9. Sugar Ray Leonard
10. Bob Fitszimmons

[JAB5239]

Jab5239....Great great reads. You know your stuff, we may not agree on everything, but for the most part we do.

Roy I agree his level of competition pales to what Duran faced. However, Duran lost these fights or at least most of them. Duran dominated lightweight fightintg far easier level of compeition than Roy did. At least 1/3 of his fights were vs fighters that would struggle to be considered valid sparring partners. However, you do have to give Duran credit he was great, and did move up and beat Ray at 147, and yes he did earn a part of the middleweight championship 21 years after he started.

Compare that to Roy....He was undefeated (except for a dq) until he reach 35 and moved down from heavyweight to accept challenges. He beat fighters the quality of what Duran beat except for Leonard. Duran lost these fights that many give him credit for excepting these challenges, and for the most part these fights were before he reached age 34. Roy moved up 40 pounds to challenge for Heavyweight title..Duran moved up 50 pounds from 118 ( the weight for his first fight) to 168....Hmmm great on both parts. Duran did lose to Dejesus, and was dropped the 2nd fight before coming on to stop him. I think many will simply give Duran the nod, with out digging deep into this comparison. If you do Roy looks much better than what many would initially think.


I think fighters from the past were definately tougher, had more stamina, and could take a better punch. However, Ray Robinson, Ali, Leoanrd, Whitacker, have all shown that their style of speed, combinations, movement, right hand leads..etc..this style has continously shown to best the best fighters of the yesteryear's style. Liston, Duran, Chavez, and the great fighters Robinson beat, all struggle mightily when dealing with the angles, speed, counterpunching styles that Robinson initially started, ali took to another level, and then leonard kept it going. Do you think Marciano would be undefeated had he had to face Ali, Tyson, etc...He may have beaten Tyson, but would lose to Ali...etc.


Your points about Mayweather I concur...I hate him myself, I think he has avoided the best at Welter...However,,,However....keep this in mind. Leonard didnt campaign effectivly at middleweight or higher. He did win the belt, but he never campaigned vs the best at that weight class, above Welter. Duran moved up and got beat repeatedly. Dlh move up and got beat, Whitacker has many top fights at the lower weight, but did not campaign effectivly at the higher weights...

We all hate Mayweather, but the fact is no he did not fight William, Cotto, or Margerito, but outside of Robinson and now pacquio,,who has moved up roughly 20 pounds and faced the best at that higher weight class, and repeatedly won. Roy is close but there are names he did not fight either..Duran lost, leoanrd was retired, etc..etc.. etc.. so how can we slam Mayweather. In all honesty he is fighting 18 pounds north of his orginal weight class, and has done so better than most.

Im heading to the gym in a few minutes, but I will get back to you, my friend. Im enjoying this little debate that we can both learn something from. Peace.

[Hearnsz]

Sam Langford seems to be highly ranked by alot of people. Yogi already educated me a bit about him in his previous post and I'll deffinately do some research about him! He never won a title right?

[Yogi]

Sam Langford seems to be highly ranked by alot of people. Yogi already educated me a bit about him in his previous post and I'll deffinately do some research about him! He never won a title right?

He won many titles, Rafael, although the majority of his "world" titles were won overseas;

"New York, May 30--Sam Langford, of Boston, is billed in London music halls as 'the heavyweight champion of the world'. He is showing to crowded houses, and is rakingin the money hand over fist. The fact that Johnson has refused to fill his European contracts while Langford is on the other side, has increased the belief there that Burns' conqueror is a quitter. Langford has recieved a championship belt from the National Sporting Club, and says he will defend his new honors against any man in the world. He does not bar Jeffries in making up his list of desirable opponents, and says he will fight Johnson, winner take all." - printed in a few sources dated May 31st, 1909 with this taken from the Washington Herald on that date

One of many other sources referencing that and this one from a couple of weeks later;

"A negro who is much in the limelight right now is Sam Langford, of Boston, who has recently been proclaimed the heavyweight champion of the world by Lord Lonsdale and other promoters of the boxing game in England. The fact that Johnson welched out of his match with langford in London is the reason why the latter has recieved a belt emblematic of the title. The National Sporting Club declared the other day that Johnson's failure to live up to his agreement was equal to forfeiting the championship." - New York Sun, June 13th, 1909

That proclamation by the National Sporting Club (the oldest governing body since the Queensberry days), was of course, as those elude to, was because Johnson backed out of a signed agreement he had to face Langford in London. The contracts were originally signed when the English promoters lent Johnson the money to travel to Australia to face Burns, with the understanding that if Johnson won he'd return to London to face Langford. Johnson agreed to that, and you can find signed agreements of the like in the papers of the time.

That's the heavyweight, but there was also this story that was reported in many sources, as well;

"London, April 23--Sam Langford, the burly negro who hails from Cambridge, Mass., more than evened up matters for the decision against his countrymen by knocking out "Tiger" Smith, the pride of the British army, who was considered the best light heavyweight in England, next to Gunner Moir, in the fourth of their scheduled twenty-round go. The ebony hued scrapper from across the big pond forced the fighting all the way and gave the "Tiger" a merciless beating. This bout was announced to be for the middleweight championship of the world and a purse of $2,000." - Washington Times, Apr 23rd, 1907

Neither were accepted much on this side of the pond, though, although Langford did outfight the reigning middleweight champion, Stanley Ketchel, in a six-rounder in Philadelphia that took place in Apr of 1910, I believe it was. That was supposed to be a prelude to a fight (a 45 rounder) they scheduled against each other for the summer of 1910, but Ketchel backed out during the days leading up to it stating that he was unfit to fight.

Oh, Langford also decisioned the reigning lightweight champion, Joe Gans, while weighing in at two pounds over the lightweight limit during an earlier fight, and he also was said to have outboxed the reigning welterweight champion, Barbados Joe Walcott, soon after only to see the fight declared a draw. Both were fought over 15 round distances.

Also, Langford had some strong light heavyweight title claims during the years between 1911 and 1912, and while it will take me too long to get into, here's a few quotes from the papers at the time that I've posted elsewhere in the past;

"Langford was hailed as the light heavyweight champion of the world" - Jan 15th, 1911, Colorado Springs Gazette

"Mr. Hugh D. McIntosh, the world's most famous sports promoter, who recently put up a prize of 3,500, the largest stake ever offered for a boxing contest in this country, for a bout between Lang, the champion of Australia, and Langford, the colored light heavyweight champion of the world." - Washington Post, Mar 24th, 1911

"Since O'Brien's handlers assure him he can lift the polish off langford's claim to the light heavyweight title in short order, it now appears he really thinks so himself." - Washington Post, Fort Wayne News, etc., Aug 15th, 1911

"Joe Jeannette and Sam Langford have been matched for a ten-round bout at Madison Square Garden for the title of Light Heavyweight Champion of the World and a purse of $10,000." - AP report dated Aug 28th, 1911, and printed in various sources such as the Washington Post, Indianapolis Star, Daily Northwestern, etc., etc.

After that fight, which Langford reportedly got the best of while weighing in at 168 pounds (as per NY Times, Sept 6th, 1911);

"There was little disagreement today among the experts as to the justification of Sam Langford's claim to the light heavyweight championship." - AP report dated Sep 6th, 1911 in the Syracuse Herald, Lincoln Evening News, etc.

"The light heavyweight title rightfully belongs to Langford. Sam has defeated every man of his weight in the world. Jack O' Brien was the last challenger that Sam sent to slumber." - AP dated Dec 4th, 1911, and printed in a number of sources

"The Federation Francais de Boxe, the French pugilistic governing body which has been trying to form an international board to manage the boxing game, recommends that the following be recognized as the present actual world's champions; Flyweight: Sid Smith, Bantamweight: Johnny Coulon, Featherweight: Johnny Kilbane, Lightweight: Ad Wolgast, Welterweight: Dixie Kid, Middleweight: Billy Papke, Light Heavyweight: Sam Langford, Heavyweight: Jack Johnson" - AP report listed in a number of different sources between the dates July 12th to the 21st

Two months later, as printed in a number of sources from Sept 12th to 16th, that list that was "recommended" there went to an "approved" list. Of course, as some may know, the Federation Francais de Boxe (led by Victor Breyer) were the leaders in forming the Internation Boxing Union, which was formed largely because they wanted to clear of the confusion over fighters claiming titles amongst other things. Worth noting too, that the newspaper writers on this side of the pond didn't have any objections to the fighters listed save for Dixie Kid and Billy Papke (who some dispute as champions in record books and whatnot).

[StarshipTrooper]

Sam Langford seems to be highly ranked by alot of people. Yogi already educated me a bit about him in his previous post and I'll deffinately do some research about him! He never won a title right?

Sam Langford was a Welterweight who fought and KOed Heavyweights. That in and of itself will get you consideration for P4P lists. Langford also fought a titantic battle with Jack Johnson and held his own for most of the fight: No small thing considering who is opponent was.

Poet

[slicksouthpaw16]

Sam Langford was a Welterweight who fought and KOed Heavyweights. That in and of itself will get you consideration for P4P lists. Langford also fought a titantic battle with Jack Johnson and held his own for most of the fight: No small thing considering who is opponent was.

Poet

I agree Poet, however Langford was a lightweight that fought and drew with the best fighters down there and is known for moving up in weight and fighting the best in each weight class and performing well against them. He also fought and beat some of the best African American heavyweights in the Johnson era. I have heard different stories from the Johnson fight though. One source stated Johnson toyed with Langford and had to ease up on the assults at time, and another one stated that the fight was very competitive and that let to Johnson not giving Langford a rematch as a champion. This is an article that i pulled from Wiki.

''Langford was a boxer who fought greats from the lightweight division right up to the heavyweights, beating many champions in the process. However, he was never able to secure a world title for himself. The primary reason for this was that heavyweight champion Jack Johnson, after winning their first match, repeatedly refused rematches against Langford, who was considered by some to be the most dangerous challenger for Johnson's crown, although Johnson cited Langford's inability to meet his $30,000 appearance fee. Despite the fact Langford never received his rightful chance at the heavyweight title because of Jack Johnson's refusal to risk his crown against Langford, Ring magazine founder Nat Fleischer rated Langford as one of the ten best heavyweights of all time''.

[Yogi]

I have heard different stories from the Johnson fight though. One source stated Johnson toyed with Langford and had to ease up on the assults at time, and another one stated that the fight was very competitive and that let to Johnson not giving Langford a rematch as a champion.

If you don't mind me asking, what sources are you looking at, Slickster?

[slicksouthpaw16]

If you don't mind me asking, what sources are you looking at, Slickster?

This is a very good article that discusses the fight and actually gives us a round by round anaylsis on how the fight happened. I first looked at Buzzler.com and according to them, the fight was very competitive. This is from Buzzler.com

''Langford’s early strategy was centered upon using his hand and foot speed to befuddle Johnson and thwart his stellar defense. Langford missed with two fast lefts and ****** a solid right off of the top of Johnson’s skull. Jack fought patiently, countering with right leads over Langford’s thrusts and managing to keep his challenger at arms length. Langford was excited and determined to land with authority on Jack.

Sam was short with a right hook and came right back with a hard left hook to the solar plexus. Jack jabbed hard at Sam, then scored with a right lead to the neck followed by a jolting left lead to the point of Langford’s chin. Sam returned to his corner realizing that the first round was a carbon copy of their previous contest, dominated by Jack.

Rounds two through four saw Jack continuing to frustrate Langford, outthinking the challenger and maintaining an iron defense against Sam’s rapider like combinations that too often sailed wide of the mark. Late in round three Langford feinted beautifully and jolted Jack with a smashing right to the chin. The champion held, then broke and retreated to clear his senses. With that exception, the first four rounds clearly belonged to the titleholder.

Rounds five and six told a different tale. Langford’s speed began to pay dividends as his solid jabs began to find the mark, connecting frequently with Johnson’s face. Although Jack still blocked a majority of these blows, it was apparent that Sam had discovered a mechanism to bother Jack. Johnson was content to smirk at Sam and taunt him through raise gloves. "You don’t belong in the same ring with me, Sam. You ought to know charity when you see it., Ol’ Jack is jes helpin you out.".

Early in round seven Johnson began to feint. Doing little else, his head fakes and defensive maneuvers began to anger Sam. "I’m whippin you Jack. You gonna be sorry you made me wait!". Langford landed a wide, glancing right lead off of Jack’s head, ****** a short right to the body and hammered Jack about the shoulders and head with a series of blinding punches. With thirty seconds remaining in the round Johnson delivered a shoulder fake and Sam was wide open.

A Johnson right uppercut, delivered with power and telling accuracy, crashed under Sam’s chin and sent the challenger tumbling to the canvas. Rage in his eyes, Langford pulled himself to one knee and took the count of nine. Jack immediately delivered a punishing right to the body and crossed up Sam with a left uppercut that dropped Langford to one knee at the bell. Bounding to his feet, Sam wobbled to his stool, his eyes glazed. He had been hurt.

Johnson’s attack seemed to remind Sam that he was in with a foeman very worthy of his steel. Now cautious, Sam used round eight to recuperate as he reorganized his battle plan. Johnson, never overly aggressive, was confident he could land the big punch when circumstances required. Jabbing with increased frequency, Jack held Langford off during rounds nine and ten, parrying Sam’s solid right leads and bullish attempts at hurt Johnson to the body.

Early in round eleven Sam trapped Jack against the ropes. Confident, Johnson bobbed his massive frame and picked off two hard Langford right leads. Sam stepped smartly to his left, permitting Johnson an opening to escape to ring center. Taking the bait Johnson slid outward only to be staggered by a classic right cross that Sam buried into his jaw. Johnson stumbled into ring center, pursued by Langford with missed with two long rights, scoring with a left hook to the head and smashing three right leads into Johnson’s stomach.

Jack feinted, offered a right lead and attempted to surprise Sam with "Iron Mike", the killer right uppercut. Sam sidestepped the blow and countered with a perfect left hook to Johnson’s jaw. Down went Jack, flat on his back and he was badly dazed. Grasping for the lower rope his fell forward onto his face before forcing himself to his feet as the referee’s count tolled nine. Sam had a minute left to finish the job yet, seeing his first true opportunity in two bouts to stop Johnson, his eagerness to deliver the finis’ denied him a chance for the stoppage. Firing long right leads and bulling himself into Jack, trying to get inside, Sam found himself stymied by Johnson’s defense. Jack was hurt yet he knew how to survive. Tying Sam into knots the champion lasted the round.

Round 12, 13 and 14 saw the titleholder reduce the pace of the contest to a near standstill. Jack was no stranger to the canvas and having come within an eyelash of surrendering the championship in round 11 resurrected the Johnson’s tendency to box conservatively unless threatened. He snaked long jabs into Sam’s face and repeatedly tangled up his challenger in his long arms, forcing numerous time consuming clinches. By the end of round 14 the slow handclap had begun and Langford, his left eye badly swollen and claret dripped from his mouth, had begun to tire.

Early in round 15 Jack snarled at Langford. "Come on and take my title. It’s here for ya. Come on in and lets fight. Haven’t shown me a thing today". Langford, well schooled in how to prevail in a long contest and familiar with Johnson’s tantalizing, refused to take the bait. Yet Jack was clearly in control. Having absorbed Sam’s best shot four rounds earlier the Champion was content to deliver hard right hand leaders over Langford’s rushes and spear his opponent with powerful jabs. Jack aimed directly at Sam’s injured eye, landing several punishing combinations late in the round as Langford, tiring rapidly, smothered Jack in a clinch at the bell.

Johnson controlled rounds 16 and 17 by working exclusively on Langford’s body. Jack crashed three hard right crosses to Langford’s midsection early in the eighteenth, forcing Sam’s weary guard down just in time for a right hand bomb from Jack that decked Langford for the third time in the contest. Sam took the count of nine, barely lifting his knee off of the canvas before the fatal ten was tolled. Langford threw himself at Jack, winging wild right leads that bounced off of Jack’s impenetrable arms. With seconds remaining in the round Langford found Jack’s chin with a bludgeoning right cross, his best blow in six rounds. Jack merely laughed it as the bell concluded the round.

The Champion tried to take the 18th round off yet found his nemesis realizing that his one and only championship shot was on the threshold of failure. Bleeding, swollen and grunting Langford pinned Jack against the ropes and pounded the titleholder with a seemingly never ending volley of terrific right and left hand smashes to the body. Initially Jack dismissed the attack, confident he could feint his way out of the corner and into ring center. However, Sam was not buying it.

Pushing his tormentor against the ring apron Langford threw haymaker after haymaker and many of the blows exploded on Johnson’s chin and face. Eighteen rounds of combat had begun to dull Jack’s defense and for the first time in the bout a large mouse appeared over Jack’s left eye.

Johnson was visibly weary as the two combatants began the 19th round. Jack again tried to rest yet the rejuvenated Langford would have none of it, battering his way past Jack’s guard and again punishing the exhausted Champion brutally about the body. Midway through the round Sam landed a crushing straight right hand to the heart and Jack staggered into the ropes. Johnson grabbed the shorter Langford around the head and forced a desperate clinch. Jabbing hard, Jack would have no more of the challenger’s attack as he kept Sam at the end of his long arms for the final minute of the round.

The Champion extended his right glove at the beginning of the final round. "You’se kin fight, Sam. Mebbe I was wrong" smirked Jack as the two tapped gloves. Langford missed a wild right lead the caused him to lose balance and trip over his own feet, landing on the canvas. Johnson worked a stiff jab into Langford’s face over the first half of the round. Langford was short with a left and ****** a right off of Johnson’s swollen face. Jack blocked a Langford right, countered with a stiff left to the nose and a terrific right lead to the body that caused Langford to gasp.

Both fighters were at the point of exhaustion as the contest entered its final minute. Jack blocked a Langford right and pulled his challenger into a lengthy clinch. Langford missed a hard right, then landed two light lefts to the ribcage. Jack jabbed Sam hard twice and took a solid Langford left hook to the jaw as the bell signaled the conclusion of the bout.

Sam extended his glove to Jack as the referee separated the pair. "Thanks for the chance," he grunted as he took his robe and turned towards his corner. Shortly Referee Driscoll held Jack’s hand high in the air. The newspaperman agreed. He had retained his championship in an epic contest against a foeman who refused to go as quietly as he had five years''

[slicksouthpaw16]

Now the article that stated Johnson had to ease up on the beating was actually Boxrec. One day i was browsing through as i was looking through Johnson's resume and wanted to find out more on the fight. Here is the article.

''Shortly before Johnson's legendary reign as heavyweight champion, he met Sam Langford in Chelsea Massachusetts in defense of his "colored" portion of the heavyweight crown. Johnson, who had met the best heavyweight contenders (compared to Langford, who had recently battled lightweights and welterweights), dominated the bout and according to Dad Phillips, who was in attendance for the bout, "purposely eased up on his onslaughts." Langford was also reportedly taken to the hospital after the bout was over. ''